Nang
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Read Calvin's works and then get back to me, and then tell me how well Spurgeon and MacArthur represent his teachings . . . on a scale of 1- 10.
ECT MADist thought for the day
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Read Calvin's works and then get back to me, and then tell me how well Spurgeon and MacArthur represent his teachings . . . on a scale of 1- 10.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
To read Calvin's works is to be an elitist?
How so?
Why don't you do a read of "Calvin's Institutes?" It is available online, as well as all his biblical commentaries.
Why listen to rumours about him? Read his theology for yourself.
No one should ever criticize a teacher that they have not read. That is less than honest and intellectually/spiritually lazy and inexcusable, IMO.
An 8 for Spurgeon and about a 5 for MacArthur.
MacArthur represents you better actually.
But we both know however he answers that question, you will lie even if he gets it right according to you.
I didn't verbalize it... but reading Calvin's work would take a lot of time. Not that it can't be done.
It's okay to be chosen. It is not okay to speak against God's word about what that means. I understand you to mean that you see through what she is saying in regard to the concept in what it is in its unBiblicalness. If that's a word. Maybe unBiblical nature would be a better way to say it.
People can do a lot of things with Theology. What matters is that we do what is right.
To be right is a noble pursuit. Maybe we know of when we were not right so we deem this impossible. But even the Theological giants have struggles/struggled. May God lead all of us into His truth. And even more so now as we come to see our lack He may do that for us.
It's not Theological knowledge that we desire. But understanding in the things of the truth... of God and His Messiah. And how He wants us to live. The things He has promised us, etc....
But for now Calvin has a place in history. We can understand those who have read or been influenced by Calvin by understanding his works, if we get the chance to experience them for ourselves either through personal study or interacting with others. But I know that even though I have been influenced by Calvin (I'm not a Calvinist, but I grew up Protestant), there are things that can be learned from scripture that go beyond what he has done (to be fair, I haven't read all his works). My example is in the prophet, priest, king situation regarding how Christ is all of these. More can be learned from scripture on each of these, and in what manner these are true of Christ... and in what things other than specifically in regard to Christ we can learn on each of these three by studying the whole of the Bible. Sometimes people (I've been there) have been locked into their Theological view so as not to see other things that God reveals to them later (this is my example).
It may be unfair to use the word elite, so I have used it "wisely". Hopefully Nang is reading this. I know she can change. And we can all learn from Calvin.
It may be a surprise to some the extensiveness and detailed/powerful nature of Calvin's work. The Institutes, if I remember correctly, are no small book.
Romans shows that man is without excuse, and can be saved. You say man is without excuse and some men cannot be saved? God does the saving... but to limit the gospel only to those who live righteously before God is to limit God. The witness of creation has its place in the gospel. And people have been saved, if not in full in part, by it.
I guess we could say your words about you vs any writing we can pull out. You are completely ridiculous.
You're just plain out and out nasty - I can totally see why sozo had issues with you now with my own eyes. Too bad he left instead of you.
No wonder you need to believe that you were 'chosen' and that you are totally depraved. You can do as you please without worry of any account before God.
If anything is a "license to sin" its that.
I didn't say it was.
There is nothing wrong with reading Calvin's Institutes. If one does, I recommend they also read about his life from something other than the man himself. Thank you for letting me know it is available online. It would take some bookshelf space and there is an expense to get the books themselves (I believe there would be more than one, correct?).
Do you have the link (a link you deem appropriate) for the work?
I don't think a person should be criticized for their work if it has not been read. But I do believe a person's life can be evaluated beyond what they have written.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Here is a portion of what Calvin taught regarding the three offices of Jesus Christ as Prophet, Priest and King:
"1.
Though heretics pretend the name of Christ, truly does Augustine affirm, (Enchir. ad Laurent. cap. 5,) that the foundation is not common to them with the godly, but belongs exclusively to the Church: for if those things which pertain to Christ be diligently considered, it will be found that Christ is with them in name only, not in reality. Thus in the present day, though the Papists have the words, Son of God, Redeemer of the world, sounding in their mouths, yet, because contented with an empty name, they deprive him of his virtue and dignity; what Paul says of "not holding the head," is truly applicable to them, (Col. 2: 19.) Therefore, that faith may find in Christ a solid ground of salvation, and so rest in him, we must set out with this principle, that the office which he received from the Father consists of three parts. For he was appointed both Prophet, King, and Priest; though little were gained by holding the names unaccompanied by a knowledge of the end and use. These too are spoken of in the Papacy, but frigidly, and with no great benefit, the full meaning comprehended under each title not being understood. We formerly observed, that though God, by supplying an uninterrupted succession of prophets, never left his people destitute of useful doctrine, such as might suffice for salvation; yet the minds of believers were always impressed with the conviction that the full light of understanding was to be expected only on the advent of the Messiah. This expectation, accordingly, had reached even the Samaritans, to whom the true religion had never been made known. This is plain from the expression of the woman, "I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things," (John 4: 25.) Nor was this a mere random presumption which had entered the minds of the Jews. They believed what sure oracles had taught them. One of the most remarkable passages is that of Isaiah, "Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people," (Is. 54: 4
that is, in the same way in which he had previously in another place styled him "Wonderful, Counsellor," (Is. 9: 6.) For this reason, the apostle commending the perfection of gospel doctrine, first says that "God, at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the prophets," and then adds, that he "has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son," (Heb. 1: 1, 2.) But as the common office of the prophets was to hold the Church in suspense, and at the same time support it until the advent of the Mediator; we read, that the faithful, during the dispersion, complained that they were deprived of that ordinary privilege. "We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet, neither is there among us any that knoweth how long," (Ps. 74: 9.) But when Christ was now not far distant, a period was assigned to Daniel "to seal up the vision and prophecy," (Daniel 9: 24,) not only that the authority of the prediction there spoken of might be established, but that believers might, for a time, patiently submit to the want of the prophets, the fulfilment and completion of all the prophecies being at hand.2.
Moreover, it is to be observed, that the name Christ refers to those three offices: for we know that under the law, prophets as well as priests and kings were anointed with holy oil. Whence, also, the celebrated name of Messiah was given to the promised Mediator. But although I admit (as, indeed, I have elsewhere shown) that he was so called from a view to the nature of the kingly office, still the prophetical and sacerdotal unctions have their proper place, and must not be overlooked. The former is expressly mentioned by Isaiah in these words: "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me: because the Lord has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captive, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord," (Is. 60: 1, 2.) We see that he was anointed by the Spirit to be a herald and witness of his Father's grace, and not in the usual way; for he is distinguished from other teachers who had a similar office. And here, again, it is to be observed, that the unction which he received, in order to perform the office of teacher, was not for himself, but for his whole body, that a corresponding efficacy of the Spirit might always accompany the preaching of the Gospel. This, however, remains certain, that by the perfection of doctrine which he brought, an end was put to all the prophecies, so that those who, not contented with the Gospel, annex somewhat extraneous to it, derogate from its authority. The voice which thundered from heaven, "This is my beloved Son, hear him" gave him a special privilege above all other teachers. Then from him, as head, this unction is diffused through the members, as Joel has foretold, "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions," (Joel 2: 28.) Paul's expressions, that he was "made unto us wisdom," (1 Cor. 1: 30,) and elsewhere, that in him "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," (Col. 2: 3,) have a somewhat different meaning, namely, that out of him there is nothing worth knowing, and that those who, by faith, apprehend his true character, possess the boundless immensity of heavenly blessings. For which reason, he elsewhere says, "I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified," (1 Cor. 2: 2.) And most justly: for it is unlawful to go beyond the simplicity of the Gospel. The purpose of this prophetical dignity in Christ is to teach us, that in the doctrine which he delivered is substantially included a wisdom which is perfect in all its parts.
3.
I come to the Kingly office, of which it were in vain to speak, without previously reminding the reader that its nature is spiritual; because it is from thence we learn its efficacy, the benefits it confers, its whole power and eternity. Eternity, moreover, which in Daniel an angel attributes to the office of Christ, (Dan. 2: 44,) in Luke an angel justly applies to the salvation of his people, (Luke 1: 33.) But this is also twofold, and must be viewed in two ways; the one pertains to the whole body of the Church the other is proper to each member. To the former is to be referred what is said in the Psalms, "Once have I sworn by my holiness, that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever, as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven," (Ps. 89: 35, 37.) There can be no doubt that God here promises that he will be, by the hand of his Son, the eternal governor and defender of the Church. In none but Christ will the fulfilment of this prophecy be found; since immediately after Solomon's death the kingdom in n great measure lost its dignity, and, with ignominy to the family of David, was transferred to a private individual. Afterwards decaying by degrees, it at length came to a sad and dishonourable end. In the same sense are we to understand the exclamation of Isaiah, "Who shall declare his generation?" (Isaiah 53: 8.) For he asserts that Christ will so survive death as to be connected with his members. Therefore, as often as we hear that Christ is armed with eternal power, let us learn that the perpetuity of the Church is thus effectually secured; that amid the turbulent agitations by which it is constantly harassed, and the grievous and fearful commotions which threaten innumerable disasters, it still remains safe. Thus, when David derides the audacity of the enemy who attempt to throw off the yoke of God and his anointed, and says, that kings and nations rage "in vain," (Ps. 2: 2-4,) because he who sitteth in the heaven is strong enough to repel their assaults, assuring believers of the perpetual preservation of the Church, he animates them to have good hope whenever it is occasionally oppressed. So, in another place, when speaking in the person of God, he says, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool," (Ps. 110: 1,) he reminds us, that however numerous and powerful the enemies who conspire to assault the Church, they are not possessed of strength sufficient to prevail against the immortal decree by which he appointed his Son eternal King. Whence it follows that the devil, with the whole power of the world, can never possibly destroy the Church, which is founded on the eternal throne of Christ. Then in regard to the special use to be made by each believer, this same eternity ought to elevate us to the hope of a blessed immortality. For we see that every thing which is earthly, and of the world, is temporary, and soon fades away. Christ, therefore, to raise our hope to the heavens, declares that his kingdom is not of this world, (John 18: 36.) In fine, let each of us, when he hears that the kingdom of Christ is spiritual, be roused by the thought to entertain the hope of a better life, and to expect that as it is now protected by the hand of Christ, so it will be fully realised in a future life.
4.
That the strength and utility of the kingdom of Christ cannot, as we have said, be fully perceived without recognising it as spiritual, is sufficiently apparent, even from this, that having during the whole course of our lives to war under the cross, our condition here is bitter and wretched. What then would it avail us to be ranged under the government of a heavenly King, if its benefits were not realised beyond the present earthly life? We must, therefore, know that the happiness which is promised to us in Christ does not consist in external advantages - such as leading a joyful and tranquil life, abounding in wealth, being secure against all injury, and having an affluence of delights, such as the flesh is wont to long for - but properly belongs to the heavenly life. As in the world the prosperous and desirable condition of a people consists partly in the abundance of temporal good and domestic peace, and partly in the strong protection which gives security against external violence; so Christ also enriches his people with all things necessary to the eternal salvation of their souls and fortifies them with courage to stand unassailable by all the attacks of spiritual foes. Whence we infer, that he reigns more for us than for himself, and that both within us and without us; that being replenished, in so far as God knows to be expedient, with the gifts of the Spirit, of which we are naturally destitute, we may feel from their first fruits, that we are truly united to God for perfect blessedness; and then trusting to the power of the same Spirit, may not doubt that we shall always be victorious against the devil, the world, and every thing that can do us harm. To this effect was our Saviour's reply to the Pharisees, "The kingdom of God is within you." "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation," (Luke 17: 21, 22.) It is probable that on his declaring himself to be that King under whom the highest blessing of God was to be expected, they had in derision asked him to produce his insignia. But to prevent those who were already more than enough inclined to the earth from dwelling on its pomp, he bids them enter into their consciences, for "the kingdom of God" is "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost," (Rom. 14: 17.) These words briefly teach what the kingdom of Christ bestows upon us. Not being earthly or carnal, and so subject to corruption, but spiritual, it raises us even to eternal life, so that we can patiently live at present under toil, hunger, cold, contempt, disgrace, and other annoyances; contented with this, that our King will never abandon us, but will supply our necessities until our warfare is ended, and we are called to triumph: such being the nature of his kingdom, that he communicates to us whatever he received of his Father. Since then he arms and equips us by his power, adorns us with splendour and magnificence, enriches us with wealth, we here find most abundant cause of glorying, and also are inspired with boldness, so that we can contend intrepidly with the devil, sin, and death. In fine, clothed with his righteousness, we can bravely surmount all the insults of the world: and as he replenishes us liberally with his gifts, so we can in our turn bring forth fruit unto his glory.
5.
Accordingly, his royal unction is not set before us as composed of oil or aromatic perfumes; but he is called the Christ of God, because "the Spirit of the Lord" rested upon him; "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord," (Isaiah 11: 2.) This is the oil of joy with which the Psalmist declares that he was anointed above his fellows, (Ps. 45: 7.) For, as has been said, he was not enriched privately for himself, but that he might refresh the parched and hungry with his abundance. For as the Father is said to have given the Spirit to the Son without measure, (John 3: 34,) so the reason is expressed, that we might all receive of his fulness, and grace for grace, (John 1: 16.) From this fountain flows the copious supply (of which Paul makes mention, Eph. 4: 7) by which grace is variously distributed to believers according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Here we have ample confirmation of what I said, that the kingdom of Christ consists in the Spirit, and not in earthly delights or pomp, and that hence, in order to be partakers with him, we must renounce the world. A visible symbol of this grace was exhibited at the baptism of Christ, when the Spirit rested upon him in the form of a dove. To designate the Spirit and his gifts by the term "unction" is not new, and ought not to seem absurd (see 1 John 2: 20, 27,) because this is the only quarter from which we derive life; but especially in what regards the heavenly life, there is not a drop of vigour in us save what the Holy Spirit instils, who has chosen his seat in Christ, that thence the heavenly riches, of which we are destitute, might flow to us in copious abundance. But because believers stand invincible in the strength of their King, and his spiritual riches abound towards them, they are not improperly called Christians. Moreover, from this eternity of which we have spoken, there is nothing derogatory in the expression of Paul, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father," (1 Cor. 15: 24
and also, "Then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in and" (1 Cor. 15: 28 for the meaning merely is, that, in that perfect glory, the administration of the kingdom will not be such as it now is. For the Father has given all power to the Son, that by his hand he may govern, cherish, sustain us, keep us under his guardianship, and give assistance to us. Thus, while we wander far as pilgrims from God, Christ interposes, that he may gradually bring us to full communion with God. And, indeed, his sitting at the right hand of the Father has the same meaning as if he was called the vicegerent of the Father, entrusted with the whole power of government. For God is pleased, mediately (so to speak) in his person to rule and defend the Church. Thus also his being seated at the right hand of the Father is explained by Paul, in the Epistle to the Ephesians, to mean, that "he is the head over all things to the Church, which is his body," (Eph. 1: 20, 22.) Nor is this different in purport from what he elsewhere teaches, that God has "given him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father," (Phil. 2: 9-11.) For in these words, also, he commends an arrangement in the kingdom of Christ, which is necessary for our present infirmity. Thus Paul rightly infers that God will then be the only Head of the Church, because the office of Christ, in defending the Church, shall then have been completed. For the same reason, Scripture throughout calls him Lord, the Father having appointed him over us for the express purpose of exercising his government through him. For though many lordships are celebrated in the world, yet Paul says, "To us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him," (1 Cor. 8: 6.) Whence it is justly inferred that he is the same God, who, by the mouth of Isaiah, declared, "The Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our Lawgiver, the Lord is our King: he will save us," (Isaiah 33: 22.) For though he every where describes all the power which he possesses as the benefit and gift of the Father, the meaning simply is, that he reigns by divine authority, because his reason for assuming the office of Mediator was, that descending from the bosom and incomprehensible glory of the Father, he might draw near to us. Wherefore there is the greater reason that we all should with one consent prepare to obey, and with the greatest alacrity yield implicit obedience to his will. For as he unites the offices of King and Pastor towards believers, who voluntarily submit to him, so, on the other hand, we are told that he wields an iron sceptre to break and bruise all the rebellious like a potter's vessel, (Ps. 2: 9.) We are also told that he will be the Judge of the Gentiles, that he will cover the earth with dead bodies, and level down every opposing height, (Ps. 110: 6.) Of this examples are seen at present, but full proof will be given at the final judgement, which may be properly regarded as the last act of his reign.6.
With regard to his Priesthood, we must briefly hold its end and use to be, that as a Mediator, free from all taint, he may by his own holiness procure the favour of God for us. But because a deserved curse obstructs the entrance, and God in his character of Judge is hostile to us, expiation must necessarily intervene, that as a priest employed to appease the wrath of God, he may reinstate us in his favour. Wherefore, in order that Christ might fulfil this office, it behoved him to appear with a sacrifice. For even under the law of the priesthood it was forbidden to enter the sanctuary without blood, to teach the worshipper that however the priest might interpose to deprecate, God could not be propitiated without the expiation of sin. On this subject the Apostle discourses at length in the Epistle to the Hebrews, from the seventh almost to the end of the tenth chapter. The sum comes to this, that the honour of the priesthood was competent to none but Christ, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he wiped away our guilt, and made satisfaction for sin. Of the great importance of this matter, we are reminded by that solemn oath which God uttered, and of which he declared he would not repent, "Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek," (Ps. 110: 4.) For, doubtless, his purpose was to ratify that point on which he knew that our salvation chiefly hinged. For, as has been said, there is no access to God for us or for our prayers until the priest, purging away our defilements, sanctify us, and obtain for us that favour of which the impurity of our lives and hearts deprives us. Thus we see, that if the benefit and efficacy of Christ's priesthood is to reach us, the commencement must be with his death. Whence it follows, that he by whose aid we obtain favour, must be a perpetual intercessor. From this again arises not only confidence in prayer, but also the tranquillity of pious minds, while they recline in safety on the paternal indulgence of God, and feel assured, that whatever has been consecrated by the Mediator is pleasing to him. But since God under the Law ordered sacrifices of beasts to be offered to him, there was a different and new arrangement in regard to Christ, viz., that he should be at once victim and priest, because no other fit satisfaction for sin could be found, nor was any one worthy of the honour of offering an only begotten son to God. Christ now bears the office of priest, not only that by the eternal law of reconciliation he may render the Father favourable and propitious to us, but also admit us into this most honourable alliance. For we though in ourselves polluted, in him being priests, (Rev. 1: 6,) offer ourselves and our all to God, and freely enter the heavenly sanctuary, so that the sacrifices of prayer and praise which we present are grateful and of sweet odour before him. To this effect are the words of Christ, "For their sakes I sanctify myself," (John 17: 19
for being clothed with his holiness, inasmuch as he has devoted us to the Father with himself, (otherwise we were an abomination before him,) we please him as if we were pure and clean, nay, even sacred. Hence that unction of the sanctuary of which mention is made in Daniel, (Dan. 9: 24.) For we must attend to the contrast between this unction and the shadowy one which was then in use; as if the angel had said, that when the shadows were dispersed, there would be a clear priesthood in the person of Christ. The more detestable, therefore, is the fiction of those who, not content with the priesthood of Christ, have dared to take it upon themselves to sacrifice him, a thing daily attempted in the Papacy, where the mass is represented as an immolation of Christ." Calvin's Institutes, Book II, Chapter 15
He didnt say that and you know it.
You are either incompetent, or deliberately dishonest, please tell us which one it is.
TLDR
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Resist the devil and he will flee.
I didn't say they represented his teachings. I said they represent current calvinist thought. It isn't my fault if current calvinist teachers don't teach calvinism exactly the way calvin did. Who really has for that matter?
Very well. There are things that can be learned from Calvin here.
But even in this (section of his Institutes that you have provided) I feel he is too close to the Catholic Church (which he appears to offer an attempt in rebut).
For me it is just a blank (all white) screen.
edit - now I see it, had to use a different browser
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Thanks for the link Nang. Maybe we will be able to talk in more detail about his work you have referred to in this thread. I can already see things I will have to study out that don't sit/rest well with me at the current time/moment (right now).
I think I'm the cause of this. Meaning, if I hadn't butted in, it might not have come to this. Something to consider if your conclusion has been rash.
lifeisgood
New member
I do not understand where you are coming from. I can read the words and I understand them, but I am left with this feeling that that is not what you are saying to me.
For me:
spirit (small letter) means my spirit (dead in sins and trespasses before the born again experience).
Spirit (uppercase letter) means the Holy Spirit.
For me my spirit had to be renewed by the born again experience, through the Holy Spirit; otherwise, I would still be dead in my sins and trespasses. The Holy Spirit has to do a job in my spirit so that I can do a turnaround toward God.
The purpose of the born again experience, from my perspective and understanding of what the Bible says, is so that my spirit can be renewed by the Holy Spirit and I become a new creation where old things are passed away and all things become new.
After the born again experience, I am sealed by the Holy Spirit and now I am, after being sealed, officially a child of God.
No, before I was born again I was NOT a child of God. I become a child of God by the adoption of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross in my place, then and only then became I officially a child of God.
That's the way I see it.
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