ECT MAD 1: Jesus ministered to the circumcision.

[God's Truth]

Rom 7 is about the war, in which he says oh wretched man that I am. Sounds like sin. Then: But thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus, because 8:1 there is THEREFORE (having been honest about still being in sin) now no condemnation on those who are in Christ Jesus.

Condemnation has to do with justification. It does not mean we have suddenly become perfect in performance but our credit is restored by a third party--Christ!

Go and really learn justification from Luther, Spurgeon or Brinsmead and then we'll chat.

The doctrine of demons is to think that Romans 7 is about an unbeliever.

There is something wrong with your beliefs if you think Paul was speaking of himself as a sinner after being saved. In Romans 7 Paul speaks of someone in which no good lives in, and the good I want to do I cannot.

How in your wildest of imaginations could you ever get that is about Paul after he was saved?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

There is something wrong with your beliefs if you think Paul was speaking of himself as a sinner after being saved. In Romans 7 Paul speaks of someone in which no good lives in, and the good I want to do I cannot.

How in your wildest of imaginations could you ever get that is about Paul after he was saved?

Because no unsaved person has the desire to do good from the inward person as the saved do.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Also--

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The lifestyle required by the Lord that He will cleanse from all sin is that of walking in the light, where the light exposes all hidden imperfection, and brings them to our notice to be laid down at the feet of Jesus who renders mercy and healing of the soul.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

LA

 

[Interplanner]

That sense of misery in one's own strength:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

That sense of joy in the Spirit:

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And no, bookworm, I'm not worried about having missed out on Spurgeon.

We can ask him in that day.

And you can bring your book "about" for his autograph.

:chuckle:

He had joy in the spirit about:
but with the flesh the law of sin


??

I now understand you even more than I thought.

So at your rate of disdain for anything else, you don't listen to any other teaching or sermons, right? Then you also should not listen to your own thoughts like those above. I don't!

 

[Interplanner]

There is something wrong with your beliefs if you think Paul was speaking of himself as a sinner after being saved. In Romans 7 Paul speaks of someone in which no good lives in, and the good I want to do I cannot.

How in your wildest of imaginations could you ever get that is about Paul after he was saved?

It's dissappointing, isn't it? But Paul was trying to show the believer why justification is not just something 'initial'. It is needed before, after, above and below all human effort. That's why he can be brutally honest about sin, and also return to the encouragement of justification at the end of the day; there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

Please remember that Romans began by saying that the Gospel is the power of God for salvation. We just don't tend to think it is this powerful, this compelling. Because we are not very familiar with justification as the Gospel. But yes, forgiveness keeps us motivated even though 'in our flesh we serve a law of sin.'

As you may know, there are many studies out there about who was the 'man of Romans 7' and the proper conclusion is that it was the believer.

If you think that personal transformation far outweighs justification and future glorification, you will fight against what Romans 7 is saying.

 

[Interplanner]

Most Christians today are not taught that justification and transformation are two very different parts of redemption. There is complete confusion when they are mixed.

Historically, justification is called the legal or accounting aspect, and sanctification is the actual day-to-day reality. The most popular way of referring to the latter is the 'changed life'; the problem is when we think this is what justification is about.

 

[God's Truth]

Because no unsaved person has the desire to do good from the inward person as the saved do.

Firstly, you should have at least acknowledged that you agreed with me that Paul was not speaking of a saved person.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul was speaking about the Jews who tried to obey the law WITHOUT FAITH.

Paul was a Pharisee, and the Pharisees and teachers of the law were among the cut off and hardened Jews when Jesus came and walked the earth.

The Jews that were cut off, they were cut off because they did not have faith. A New Covenant was coming, and it was going to those who had faith and to those who will have faith.

If you need the scripture about cut off and hardened Jews, just ask.

So then, in Romans 7, Paul was speaking about someone UNDER THE LAW and WITHOUT FAITH trying to obey God.

 

[God's Truth]

Also--

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The lifestyle required by the Lord that He will cleanse from all sin is that of walking in the light, where the light exposes all hidden imperfection, and brings them to our notice to be laid down at the feet of Jesus who renders mercy and healing of the soul.

Here is a scripture you are NOT considering:

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.



That scripture PROVES that you are wrong. That scripture proves there are people, BEFORE being saved and indwelled with the Holy Spirit CAN do good by believing and obeying.

 

[God's Truth]

Thank you, Father God in heaven, for revealing your Truth to me, Jesus Christ Your Word.

 

[God's Truth]

Because no unsaved person has the desire to do good from the inward person as the saved do.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Also--

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The lifestyle required by the Lord that He will cleanse from all sin is that of walking in the light, where the light exposes all hidden imperfection, and brings them to our notice to be laid down at the feet of Jesus who renders mercy and healing of the soul.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

LA

Jesus saves those who believe and obey.

You will never ever get around that.

 

[God's Truth]

It's dissappointing, isn't it? But Paul was trying to show the believer why justification is not just something 'initial'. It is needed before, after, above and below all human effort. That's why he can be brutally honest about sin, and also return to the encouragement of justification at the end of the day; there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

What you speak is some ‘educated’ nonsense you learned in college and never humbled yourself to find the Truth.

 

[God's Truth]

It's dissappointing, isn't it? But Paul was trying to show the believer why justification is not just something 'initial'. It is needed before, after, above and below all human effort. That's why he can be brutally honest about sin, and also return to the encouragement of justification at the end of the day; there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

What you speak is some ‘educated’ nonsense you learned in college and never humbled yourself to find the Truth.
You are mixing teachings of false teachers with God’s Truth. You are mixing Luther, Calvin, and who knows whoever else.

Please remember that Romans began by saying that the Gospel is the power of God for salvation. We just don't tend to think it is this powerful, this compelling. Because we are not very familiar with justification as the Gospel. But yes, forgiveness keeps us motivated even though 'in our flesh we serve a law of sin.'

Paul was saying that about THOSE UNDER THE LAW.
Give up your teachings and submit to God to knowing nothing.
1 Corinthians 8:2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
I tell you, how powerful those words are.
You have to be willing to say okay God, I know NOTHING, show me YOUR TRUTH.

As you may know, there are many studies out there about who was the 'man of Romans 7' and the proper conclusion is that it was the believer.

If you think that personal transformation far outweighs justification and future glorification, you will fight against what Romans 7 is saying.

You have no idea about the truth. Do what His Word says, then you will know.

 

[God's Truth]

Most Christians today are not taught that justification and transformation are two very different parts of redemption. There is complete confusion when they are mixed.

Historically, justification is called the legal or accounting aspect, and sanctification is the actual day-to-day reality. The most popular way of referring to the latter is the 'changed life'; the problem is when we think this is what justification is about.

Nonsense taught to you from the words of man about the words of man to the words of man.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul says his education about God was RUBBISH.

Think about that for a while, while you listen to those who come on here speaking about their college education.

Jesus revealed the truth to those who were uneducated, poor, and ready to humble themselves.

NO ONE will be able to enter the kingdom of heaven, and be saved, and know God, until they obey Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you want to know what God thinks about those who go to college to find Him?

Just ask me, and I love to give you the scriptures.

 

[Interplanner]

Nonsense taught to you from the words of man about the words of man to the words of man.

don't talk about it unless you have specifics.

1, justification has to do with the judgement or justice of God. To solve our problem in this, Christ's righteousness has been provided. Is that something that happens 'inside' us? No. It is credited or imputed to us: Rom 4:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 17, 22, 23, 24. To see the term even more clearly, look at Col 2:18. The neo-Judaism of the area was seeking to 'dis-justify' believers in Christ. To 'dis-credit' them meant to say that they could not be justified by what Christ did (outside of them, in history) but had to be through their brand of Judaism.

Justification is not an inner change; it is by imputed credit of the righteousness of Christ toward our debt of sin. Debt has to do with accounting, and the clearest passages about this are when Jesus spoke of relative debt (Lk 7:36+) and forgivenss of debt (Mt 18:21+).

I will scan your response, and unless there are specific passages mentioned, I won't bother reading it. This place can be a complete waste of everyone's time who just restate positions over and over without specifics.

 

[God's Truth]

Nonsense taught to you from the words of man about the words of man to the words of man.

don't talk about it unless you have specifics.

I have been specific, are you blind?

1, justification has to do with the judgement or justice of God. To solve our problem in this, Christ's righteousness has been provided. Is that something that happens 'inside' us? No. It is credited or imputed to us: Rom 4:3, 4,5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 17, 22, 23, 24. To see the term even more clearly, look at Col 2:18. The neo-Judaism of the area was seeking to 'dis-justify' believers in Christ. To 'dis-credit' them meant to say that they could not be justified by what Christ did (outside of them, in history) but had to be through their brand of Judaism.

And where do you get any of that means we cannot obey ANYTHING until we are saved?
I will tell you where you got that from, you got it from your false teachers.

Justification is not an inner change; it is by imputed credit of the righteousness of Christ toward our debt of sin. Debt has to do with accounting, and the clearest passages about this are when Jesus spoke of relative debt (Lk 7:36+) and forgiveness of debt (Mt 18:21+).

What don’t you get about their being righteous men but not men who are righteous but have never ever sinned not even once except for Jesus? Think about how only Adam was born completely without sin but sinned just once and so condemned the whole world, but Jesus who was born without sin and then lived a life never sinning gave life to the whole world?

I will scan your response, and unless there are specific passages mentioned, I won't bother reading it. This place can be a complete waste of everyone's time who just restate positions over and over without specifics.

What exactly do you want a scripture reference to? Please tell me, because everything I am speaking about is scripture.

 

[Interplanner]

The Romans 4 and Col 2 examples were to define imputation/crediting. It is a completely different world from personal transformation.

We were not discussion 'we can obey some of these things even when we are not saved.' The trigger line seems to be my saying 'justification is not the changed-life.' Saying so is a confusion of cause and effect and messes the whole Christian message big time.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Firstly, you should have at least acknowledged that you agreed with me that Paul was not speaking of a saved person.





Paul was speaking about the Jews who tried to obey the law WITHOUT FAITH.

Paul was a Pharisee, and the Pharisees and teachers of the law were among the cut off and hardened Jews when Jesus came and walked the earth.

The Jews that were cut off, they were cut off because they did not have faith. A New Covenant was coming, and it was going to those who had faith and to those who will have faith.

If you need the scripture about cut off and hardened Jews, just ask.

So then, in Romans 7, Paul was speaking about someone UNDER THE LAW and WITHOUT FAITH trying to obey God.

No.

Paul was explaining how the saved person still tries to please God in the flesh until he forsakes that idea and lays his new life down, instead of thinking he has been given new life to do with it as he pleases.

Abraham had to be willing to sacrifice his new life to God AFTER he had received it. (Isaac)

(You would know about it if you have done so.)

The law of Romans 7 is not the law covenant , but the law of the first creation.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

It is definitely a believer. The unbeliever is quite happy in his sin. The believer is conflicted, and must serve in the Spirit (willingly, compelled) not the way of the letter (forced, mechanically).

There is a thread on Rom 7 that lists all the items in the 6-7 segment that show that it is a believer.

 

[God's Truth]

The Romans 4 and Col 2 examples were to define imputation/crediting. It is a completely different world from personal transformation.

We were not discussion 'we can obey some of these things even when we are not saved.' The trigger line seems to be my saying 'justification is not the changed-life.' Saying so is a confusion of cause and effect and messes the whole Christian message big time.

When Jesus saves someone that is when they are justified that is when they are changed.