Link: Rebuttal of John Piper's gun article.

6days

6days

New member
Well..... its difficult for me to imagine Jesus sleeping with a gun under His pillow.... or pulling the trigger on anyone. I didn't read Pipers article but I suspect I would mostly be in agreement with him.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
jzeidler said:
Read and leave a comment.

Rebuttle of John Piper’s gun article. | Templar of Truth
https://templaroftruth.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/rebuttle-of-john-pipers-gun-article/
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Can I respond here?

I don't agree with Piper's stance, either...but I think it's more nuanced than what many (including you) have made it.

Jesus made a very radical statement that has to be directly dealt with :

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:38-42

And there is a statement in the book of Revelation that says those that live by the sword will have to die by the sword (Revelation 13:10). The principle there is clear - with what measure ye mete, it will be measured to you again (Matt 7:2).

You say that the only evil Jesus was talking about was religious evil - but nowhere in His statements does He make that distinction. In fact, when He spoke of being forced to carry a burden one mile (and you carry it two), it was very non-religious. No doubt you know that the Persians had a law that if you were approached by one of the King's messengers, you could be compelled to assist the messenger for a short distance. Jesus is speaking here of going beyond the law - so how is it we will rest only on the OT law and use that as our defense in this situation regarding armed defense?
 
George Affleck

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
nikolai_42 said:
Can I respond here?

I don't agree with Piper's stance, either...but I think it's more nuanced than what many (including you) have made it.

Jesus made a very radical statement that has to be directly dealt with :

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:38-42

And there is a statement in the book of Revelation that says those that live by the sword will have to die by the sword (Revelation 13:10). The principle there is clear - with what measure ye mete, it will be measured to you again (Matt 7:2).

You say that the only evil Jesus was talking about was religious evil - but nowhere in His statements does He make that distinction. In fact, when He spoke of being forced to carry a burden one mile (and you carry it two), it was very non-religious. No doubt you know that the Persians had a law that if you were approached by one of the King's messengers, you could be compelled to assist the messenger for a short distance. Jesus is speaking here of going beyond the law - so how is it we will rest only on the OT law and use that as our defense in this situation regarding armed defense?
Click to expand...

Excellent post. You have hit the nail on the head. It is impossible to deny that Jesus taught pacifism in the light of a greater weight of glory.

But if my home was invaded and I found one of my grandchildren lying in a pool of blood, I would not say; "Here is another, please do the same to her."

How do I reconcile the fact that I would, without doubt, do all I could to mercilessly kill the invader with no hint of remorse?
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
George Affleck said:
Excellent post. You have hit the nail on the head. It is impossible to deny that Jesus taught pacifism in the light of a greater weight of glory.

But if my home was invaded and I found one of my grandchildren lying in a pool of blood, I would not say; "Here is another, please do the same to her."

How do I reconcile the fact that I would, without doubt, do all I could to mercilessly kill the invader with no hint of remorse?
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I have come to the conclusion (intermediate though it may be) that this is a matter of conscience much the way one's intake of alcohol is. Each man to his own master stands or falls. If someone is of a conscience that to take another's life - even if in defense of the lives of his own family - is too much to bear, then I say that that man needs to have his compete trust in the Lord to protect him from (and/or in) such circumstances.

Where it gets really dicey for me is when the intended evil is something worse than intending murder. If I knew that someone was coming to commit a crime worse than murder, I can't see how one could stand by and let the crime go on. In fact, if we accept Jesus' words in Matthew 18:6, it is even a mercy for the perpetrator to be killed before he commits such an atrocity. To be honest, one could even read that passage to include the poisoning of minds like we see in today's universities that turn out atheists by the truckload. Those professors are going to have a LOT to answer for. Be not many masters indeed!
 
jzeidler

jzeidler

New member
6days said:
Well..... its difficult for me to imagine Jesus sleeping with a gun under His pillow.... or pulling the trigger on anyone. I didn't read Pipers article but I suspect I would mostly be in agreement with him.
Click to expand...


I understand where you're coming from but Jesus had a very different purpose in life. Jesus' whole purpose in life was to die for our sins. Ours isn't, were to live to shop Jesus to others. We can't do that if we're dead and we don't do that if we allow evil to happen to others and we have a chance to shoot the person who is either raping or killing.
 
George Affleck

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
nikolai_42 said:
I have come to the conclusion (intermediate though it may be) that this is a matter of conscience much the way one's intake of alcohol is. Each man to his own master stands or falls. If someone is of a conscience that to take another's life - even if in defense of the lives of his own family - is too much to bear, then I say that that man needs to have his compete trust in the Lord to protect him from (and/or in) such circumstances.

Where it gets really dicey for me is when the intended evil is something worse than intending murder. If I knew that someone was coming to commit a crime worse than murder, I can't see how one could stand by and let the crime go on. In fact, if we accept Jesus' words in Matthew 18:6, it is even a mercy for the perpetrator to be killed before he commits such an atrocity. To be honest, one could even read that passage to include the poisoning of minds like we see in today's universities that turn out atheists by the truckload. Those professors are going to have a LOT to answer for. Be not many masters indeed!
Click to expand...

I take it a different way.

All of Jesus' teaching on this subject refers to an individual's response to evil as it affects them only; not individual or collective response to evil inflicted on others.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
George Affleck said:
I take it a different way.

All of Jesus' teaching on this subject refers to an individual's response to evil as it affects them only; not individual or collective response to evil inflicted on others.
Click to expand...

I have a response...but I don't know quite how to word it. Suffice it to say that I see some problems with that - but even at that the issue is not simple and straightforward. Individual responsibility vs. objective truth is the very broad and general contrast I see....
 
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