Limited atonement !

[Nanja]

Jesus prayer indicates limited atonement !


Jn 17:9

⁹I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


¹⁰ And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Now why did Christ refuse to pray for everyone ? Because all were not His that had been given to Him by His Father like His Sheep had been Jn 10:27-30


²⁷My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
²⁸And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
²⁹ My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The same as in Jn 17 :2

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Since Christ didnt pray for them, then He didnt die for them as He did His Sheep !

Exactly Brother ! From these scriptures it's obvious that the whole world of men at large had not been given to Christ of the Father, but exclusively His Vessels of Mercy [Sheep] which He had afore prepared unto Glory Rom. 9:23 for they were the objects of His Grace from Everlasting Eph. 1:4-7; 2 Tim. 1:9.

However, the vessels of wrath He prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22 Christ does not pray for, for that would be contrary to God's Purpose for them, as they were Created to be the objects of God's Divine Justice Mat. 25:41 [goats]; Prov. 16:4.

 

[beloved57]

Exactly Brother ! From these scriptures it's obvious that the whole world of men at large had not been given to Christ of the Father, but exclusively His Vessels of Mercy [Sheep] which He had afore prepared unto Glory Rom. 9:23 for they were the objects of His Grace from Everlasting Eph. 1:4-7; 2 Tim. 1:9.

However, the vessels of wrath He prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22 Christ does not pray for, for that would be contrary to God's Purpose for them, as they were Created to be the objects of God's Divine Justice Mat. 25:41 [goats]; Prov. 16:4.

Excellent !

 

[Arthur Brain]

You guys would liven up any party...

lain:

 

[beloved57]

Who are the Us Here ?

Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


This US refers to the Sheep as Per Jesus Christ words Jn 10:11

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Or its appropriate to say the US in Rom 5:8 refers to Gods Elect as it does in Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Its clearly seen here that Christ died in Vs 34 is connected to why none can lay anything to the charge of Gods Elect in Vs 33

 

[Vulcan Logician]

What does "rabbit trail" mean?

 

[beloved57]

Also in Jn 3:16 those who God so Loved that He gave His Only begotten for, they are the Sheep. They are the Ones Believing and have Eternal or Everlasting Life. Its confirmed by Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. This confirms that God gave His Only begotten Son

Jn 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. This confirms they are given Eternal or Everlasting Life !

Jn 10:26,27

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
This proves that its the Sheep who are the whosoever is believing in Jn 3:16.

And theyre the Ones Christ laid down His Life for Jn 10:11,15

 

[Nanja]

Also in Jn 3:16 those who God so Loved that He gave His Only begotten for, they are the Sheep. They are the Ones Believing and have Eternal or Everlasting Life. Its confirmed by Jn 10:11

11 [FONT=&]I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. This confirms that God gave His Only begotten Son

Jn 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. This confirms they are given Eternal or Everlasting Life !

Jn 10:26,27

[FONT=&]26 [/FONT]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

[FONT=&]27[/FONT]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
This proves that its the Sheep who are the whosoever is believing in Jn 3:16.

And theyre the Ones Christ laid down His Life for Jn 10:11,15[/FONT]

Amen, it's the Sheep exclusively which make up the World that God Loved John 3:16 and Christ gave His Life for John 10:11, whether jew or Gentile:

The Ones given Him of the Father Eph. 1:4; John 10:29 whose names were written in the Book of Life of the Lamb Rev. 21:27.

But all the rest, the cursed goats, shall worship their father the devil Rev. 13:8 and go into the lake of fire, the second death; prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22 Rev. 21:8; Prov. 16:4.

 

[beloved57]

Christ Death was specifically for them that God gave them Grace in Him before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

 

[Nanja]

Christ Death was specifically for them that God gave them Grace in Him before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

Yes, specifically them ! Before the world began, Grace was given to all God's Elect in their Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus 2 Tim. 1:9, who was set up Prov. 8:23 from Everlasting as The Lamb slain before the foundation Heb. 7:22 for them specifically and no others. Eternal Life was Promised them, His Sheep John 10:27-29, before the world began Titus 1:2.

So as 2 Tim. 1:9 points out, God's Grace was discriminately Given to a remnant of mankind [jew and gentile] Rom. 11:5; those who were already In Union with Christ Jesus, and thus Saved from sin In Him, their Head, before world began Eph. 1:4-7. This was all in accordance with God's Eternal Purpose of Grace in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11.

 

[beloved57]

Yes, specifically them ! Before the world began, Grace was given to all God's Elect in their Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus 2 Tim. 1:9, who was set up Prov. 8:23 from Everlasting as The Lamb slain before the foundation Heb. 7:22 for them specifically and no others. Eternal Life was Promised them, His Sheep John 10:27-29, before the world began Titus 1:2.

So as 2 Tim. 1:9 points out, God's Grace was discriminately Given to a remnant of mankind [jew and gentile] Rom. 11:5; those who were already In Union with Christ Jesus, and thus Saved from sin In Him, their Head, before world began Eph. 1:4-7. This was all in accordance with God's Eternal Purpose of Grace in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11.

Yes indeed, and by this Grace He tasted death for every Sheep Heb 2:9

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[Nanja]

Yes indeed, and by this Grace He tasted death for every Sheep Heb 2:9

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Yes indeed and afterward He rose from the dead as their Great Shepherd Heb. 13:20.

 

[beloved57]

Yes indeed, and afterward He rose from the dead as their Great Shepherd Heb. 13:20.

Exactly !

 

[beloved57]

Understand this. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save Adam’s race. He did not die to redeem Adam’s race. He did not fulfil the law for Adam’s race. If he had, Adam’s race would be saved. Christ took hold of Abraham’s seed, came to save, died for, and fulfilled all the law for Abraham’s seed, God’s chosen race, his elect nation, his own peculiar people.

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There were angels that sinned against God too, but He was not commissioned to save them from their eternal doom, and in the same way, He wasn't sent to save all of the seed of adam, but only a particular segment of his progeny, the seed of Abraham.

When it reads He took on the seed of Abraham, the words took on in the greek is epilambanomai:

to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to

to lay hold of or to seize upon anything with the hands, to take hold of, lay hold of

metaph. to rescue one from peril, to help, succour

It was only that seed He was to rescue from the pit of hell, it was only that seed He was help and succour.

Another reading:

For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand].AMPC

For Christ came to save His Own, for He himself was of the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Nanja]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

Amen, succinctly stated Brother !

 

[Nanja]

Understand this. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save Adam’s race. He did not die to redeem Adam’s race. He did not fulfil the law for Adam’s race. If he had, Adam’s race would be saved. Christ took hold of Abraham’s seed, came to save, died for, and fulfilled all the law for Abraham’s seed, God’s chosen race, his elect nation, his own peculiar people.

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There were angels that sinned against God too, but He was not commissioned to save them from their eternal doom, and in the same way, He wasn't sent to save all of the seed of adam, but only a particular segment of his progeny, the seed of Abraham.

When it reads He took on the seed of Abraham, the words took on in the greek is epilambanomai:

to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to

to lay hold of or to seize upon anything with the hands, to take hold of, lay hold of

metaph. to rescue one from peril, to help, succour

It was only that seed He was to rescue from the pit of hell, it was only that seed He was help and succour.

Another reading:

For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand].AMPC

For Christ came to save His Own, for He himself was of the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Amen, excellent !

 

[marke]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

Yes, the atonement is limited in that the atonement alone does not completely take away sins. Here are verses detailing the atonement in the OT:

2 Chronicles 29:23-25

King James Version

23 And they brought forth the he goats for the sin offering before the king and the congregation; and they laid their hands upon them:
24 And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.
25 And he set the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the Lord by his prophets.​

Here is a verse in the NT about the same atonement spoken of in the OT:

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

[DAN P]

Exactly Brother ! From these scriptures it's obvious that the whole world of men at large had not been given to Christ of the Father, but exclusively His Vessels of Mercy [Sheep] which He had afore prepared unto Glory Rom. 9:23 for they were the objects of His Grace from Everlasting Eph. 1:4-7; 2 Tim. 1:9.

However, the vessels of wrath He prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22 Christ does not pray for, for that would be contrary to God's Purpose for them, as they were Created to be the objects of God's Divine Justice Mat. 25:41 [goats]; Prov. 16:4.

#1 First , I have yet to find a Greek word for limited

#2 And second , have yet to see Paul call the body of Christ sheep , and give a verse if you have .

# 3 Will you explain your self as what you believe concerning supra , infra ,and sublapsarian views are ??

And as to John 17:9 , here is what I see .

I , ego , is a personal possessive pronoun and in the nominative case .

#1 The personal / possessive / pronoun means , that belongs to a specific person and the nominative case , usally means it is the subject .

#2 pray / erotao is min the Greek present tense , active voice and in the indicative mood of a fact .

them / autos is a personal possessive pronoun which means the same as # 1 .

#3 them / autos is a personal possessive pronoun , and same as #1 .

#4 I pray / erotao is min the Greek perfect tense , active voice and is in the indicative mood and is a fact .

#5 not / ov is a disjunctive particle negative , that he is nottttttttt.

#6 for the world is ( the /ho ) points to the world , in the genitive case which means it is the case of definition .

#7 them which / hos is a relative pronoun is used connect clauses like , whoever or whichever , is in the genitive case , which means it is the case of description .

#8 that have given / didomi is in the Greek perfect tense , means something that happened in past time and continues on and the indicative mood means it is a fact .

#9 thine / soi ism n the dative case of personal interest .

where is limitation in John 17:9 , no where to be found .

dan p

# 8

#7

 

[beloved57]

Christ intended not by his death to save all men from their sins, but thus to save the Elect only. John 10:15; Eph.5:25-27; Heb.2:14; Gen.3:15; Tit.2:14

 

[beloved57]

John 6:51 and John 10:11 are compatible, and show that the world Christ gave His Life for was the world of His Sheep,


I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

In both scriptures Jesus uses the for hyper which means:

1. in behalf of, for the sake of

He specifically tells us who the world is in Jn 10:11 in stating "the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

 

[beloved57]

Christs death is limited to them that do as He commands Jn 15:13-14

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

He died only for them who obey Him Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;