Yeah, that didn't work out so well to unite rather than divide.
Liberalism is Dead and Evangelicals Don't Deserve It Anyway
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Arthur Brain
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Like only moderate zealots...
Eh, so you're one of the fanatics who would have people killed for being gay in the present? You're just as much of a zealous crank as any Muslim extremist then Tam. Oh, the joys of religious zealotry and fundamentalism...
:rain:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Only Islam kills gays today Brain, the ones taking over your country.
That's not what I mean. All that I mean is that, had the course of history run differently, even if Germany had become a Nazi state, it could well have happened that the holocaust would not have happened. It is a contingent fact that the holocaust resulted from Nazis gaining power in Germany.
Can you tell me, with a straight face, that you are ABSOLUTELY certain that, had the Japanese invaded the east coast, and the US were losing, that the Japanese army, liberating ethnic Japanese from internment camps, would not have discovered that the US was in the process of summarily executing them?
Are you 100% sure of that?
I don't think that you are.
The actions of the Palestinians are understandable, if, perhaps, not justified, given the Israeli occupation (which is, let us please note, in violation of international law and a clear violation of human rights).
So I'm sure you'll understand why I laugh off Chair's moral outrage.
I suppose that depends upon what "Nazi" means, doesn't it?
And that's the problem with the counter-reactionary movements of the time, like naziism and fascism.
What even is naziism? What even is fascism?
When you get right down to it, these were ideologically amorphous movements which ultimately ended up being "whatever the leader says it is at the moment," though I don't think that every sense of naziism or fascism are reducible thereto.
If by naziism you mean an anti-marxist counter-reactionary movement which sought a middle way between communism and capitalism, then no, naziism isn't inherently a violent ideology (except, perhaps, relative to marxist revolutionaries and capitalist owners, but even then, it's certainly not explicitly violent). Even if you add to that an awareness of the Jewish problem, I don't think that this alone necessarily implies violence against Jews. And even if you add in the recognition of a need for a white ethnostate, I don't think that this alone necessarily implies violence against non-whites.
If, on the other hand, by naziism you mean an authoritarian state which is based around white ethnic purity, then by definition, that is certainly more violent (insofar as authoritarian), but even then, I don't think that this necessarily implies violence against non-whites, at least, certainly no more than the US South under Jim Crow (upon which, please note, the Nazis based their racial policies...it is worthy of note also that the Nazi racial policies were technically more lenient than Jim Crow in at least some respects).
The simple fact is that many things that the Nazis did ultimately are not reducible to Naziism alone as an abstract doctrine.
I do think that it's silly to think that we can simply conflate Naziism with Hitler's version, given the fact that Adolf Hitler literally engaged in purges against his own party.
You think that there is no "alternative history" where Nazis gain power and the holocaust does not happen?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
They aren't "taking over my country" and you have really turned into a crank/troll these days and I'm just sick of ya Patrick. What the hell has gotten into you the past few weeks is anyones guess.
I'll use a hypothetical, but with a real name.
If Hermann Goering said "I didn't really want to. I only did it for fear of being killed myself", is he a Nazi in a true sense of being a Nazi (whatever that is to you)?
If so, then any German, Jew, or anyone that participated in carrying out the orders because they didn't want to be killed for not carrying out the orders would be deemed a real Nazi.
We hear countless stories of Jews who didn't want to carry out the orders, but did because they didn't want to be killed.
Or do we somehow separate the Jew killers that wanted to do it from those that didn't want to?
They both did the same thing, but for different reasons.
Do we classify them differently even though they both participated in the killings, or should they all be labeled as Nazis that did the killings whether they wanted to or not?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Things such as the Holocaust could only happen under such an "ideology". It was no "accident" that it happened.
I could make similar arguments about Islam, marxism, neoconservatism, etc.
If anything, I'm inclined to think that the political ideology of the neocons is way more violent than anything that's central to naziism.
But let's be clear:
I grant that naziism was likely required for the holocaust. I just don't think that the inverse of that is true.
You may think GOD was nothing but a barbaric despot to do so.
I don't.
I've already said that if you assisted the Nazis out of fear for your own life then I wouldn't label you a Nazi. :idunno:
:doh: Of course it wasn't required...why do you think Naziism is so viscerally abhored!
But it did happen and now the two are forever joined at the hip. You can say that popular view of contemporary Naziism more than requires the Holocaust.... by way of their celebration of the "non-requirement" itself.
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Is there a non-negligible amount of people who label themselves as Nazis in the first sense you give? Because what I see in you is a wanna-be Hitler at worst and at best a provocateur who wants to use swastikas and Nazis as a way to generate attention on an online forum. There is simply no good reason to talk about being a Nazi or save the label from the scrapheap of history.
OK, thanks.
Was just making sure we weren't getting our wires crossed about the difference.
With that said, I can't help but wonder if the majority of those involved in the killings would fall into the non-Nazi category because of that very reason.
And that's just the ones that did the killings.
There would be more that did no killings, but did help to search them out, arrest them, load them in trains, drive then to the death camps, etc.
And again we cannot know how many of them only did so in fear of being killed for disobeying orders.
On the surface there may have been many that would salute Hitler and carry out any orders, but their inner self did not really want to.
Anyone that just saw their actions, but not their inner conscience would have deemed them a Nazi.
The whole thing was a messy situation, and it left a lot of folks stuck between a rock and a hard place in which either choice they made (obey or not obey) would still result in someone being killed (either the death of the one ordered to be killed or the death of the officer that disobeyed).
Alate_One
Well-known member
Wow, I disappear for a while and Traditio shows back up with a swastika avatar . . . Trad, did you wash out of philosophy grad school?
Conservatism is grounded in fear, liberalism in the lack thereof, or at least acceptance of risk. Liberalism is far from dead. There will be a backlash to the whitelash and it's already started. Unfortunately Christianity may be attacked as a byproduct. But far too many right wing Christians ceded the moral high ground when they supported Trump. There are, however, left wing and centrist Christians working to take it back.
Conservatism is grounded in fear, liberalism in the lack thereof, or at least acceptance of risk. Liberalism is far from dead. There will be a backlash to the whitelash and it's already started. Unfortunately Christianity may be attacked as a byproduct. But far too many right wing Christians ceded the moral high ground when they supported Trump. There are, however, left wing and centrist Christians working to take it back.
drbrumley
Well-known member
I will reply to this later but I have a question..
It's obvious your of the opinion that Germany could have had a more truer form of Nazism? So...
A)Just Hitler was a really bad guy who in all reality to you, took over the Party?
B)What exactly is Nazism and its' benefits to you specifically?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
So, to be clear, you think we should have laws that execute homosexuals and adulterers etc in the here and now, yes?
So, to be clear, you think GOD was wrong?
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@Traditio
Other than these usual provocative screeds, what are you up to nowadays, Trad?
Finished you grad studies?
Blogging somewhere?
Teachings as an adjunct?
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