"Knowing that salvation does not depend on “free will” can be very comforting".

Truster

New member
"Knowing that salvation does not depend on “free will” can be very comforting".

I was reading a tract this morning and found great comfort is this truth:


I confess that I would not want “free will” even if it were given to me! If my salvation were left to me, I would be no match for all the dangers, difficulties, and devils that I have to fight. But even if there were no enemies to fight, I could never be certain of success. I would never be sure I had pleased Elohim or whether there was something more I needed to do. I can prove this from my own painful experience over many years. But, my salvation is in Elohim’s hands and not my own. He will be trustworthy to His promise to save me, not on the basis of what I do but according to His great mercy. Elohim does not lie; He will not let my enemy the devil snatch me out of His hands. By “free will,” not one person can be saved. But by free grace, many will be saved. Not only so, but I am glad to know that as a Messianist, I please Elohim—not because of what I do but because of His grace. If
I work too little or too badly, He graciously pardons me and makes me better. This is the glory of all Messianists.

Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

Some words have been edited for the sake of accuracy.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
I was reading a tract this morning and found great comfort is this truth:


I confess that I would not want “free will” even if it were given to me! If my salvation were left to me, I would be no match for all the dangers, difficulties, and devils that I have to fight. But even if there were no enemies to fight, I could never be certain of success. I would never be sure I had pleased Elohim or whether there was something more I needed to do. I can prove this from my own painful experience over many years. But, my salvation is in Elohim’s hands and not my own. He will be trustworthy to His promise to save me, not on the basis of what I do but according to His great mercy. Elohim does not lie; He will not let my enemy the devil snatch me out of His hands. By “free will,” not one person can be saved. But by free grace, many will be saved. Not only so, but I am glad to know that as a Messianist, I please Elohim—not because of what I do but because of His grace. If
I work too little or too badly, He graciously pardons me and makes me better. This is the glory of all Messianists.

Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

Some words have been edited for the sake of accuracy.


"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
 

flintstoned

New member
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Why do you keep repeating this? What point are you trying to make? You are not refuting Calvinism in any way here. Calvinists believe this verse too. Yes, every single person, whether Jew or Greek (anyone!), who BELIEVES, can call on the name of the Lord and be saved. You do realize that only God's Sheep (believers) can call on him, right? And that if you do not believe, it is because you are not of God's Sheep. Nobody can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. Unbelievers cannot do so without the Holy Spirit.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Why do you keep repeating this? What point are you trying to make? You are not refuting Calvinism in any way here. Calvinists believe this verse too. Yes, every single person, whether Jew or Greek (anyone!), who BELIEVES, can call on the name of the Lord and be saved. You do realize that only God's Sheep (believers) can call on him, right? And that if you do not believe, it is because you are not of God's Sheep. Nobody can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. Unbelievers cannot do so without the Holy Spirit.

That's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
 

daqq

Well-known member
I was reading a tract this morning and found great comfort is this truth:


I confess that I would not want “free will” even if it were given to me! If my salvation were left to me, I would be no match for all the dangers, difficulties, and devils that I have to fight. But even if there were no enemies to fight, I could never be certain of success. I would never be sure I had pleased Elohim or whether there was something more I needed to do. I can prove this from my own painful experience over many years. But, my salvation is in Elohim’s hands and not my own. He will be trustworthy to His promise to save me, not on the basis of what I do but according to His great mercy. Elohim does not lie; He will not let my enemy the devil snatch me out of His hands. By “free will,” not one person can be saved. But by free grace, many will be saved. Not only so, but I am glad to know that as a Messianist, I please Elohim—not because of what I do but because of His grace. If
I work too little or too badly, He graciously pardons me and makes me better. This is the glory of all Messianists.

Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

Some words have been edited for the sake of accuracy.

"Let the Jews be exterminated and their property confiscated."

Martin Luther. Some words have been edited for the sake of accuracy.

"Let the Jews be exterminated and their property confiscated."

Martin Luther sermons in pamphlets found on the streets of Nazi Germany before WW2.
Some words have been edited due to extremely vile and filthy content. :)
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
I was reading a tract this morning and found great comfort is this truth:


I confess that I would not want “free will” even if it were given to me! If my salvation were left to me, I would be no match for all the dangers, difficulties, and devils that I have to fight. But even if there were no enemies to fight, I could never be certain of success. I would never be sure I had pleased Elohim or whether there was something more I needed to do. I can prove this from my own painful experience over many years. But, my salvation is in Elohim’s hands and not my own. He will be trustworthy to His promise to save me, not on the basis of what I do but according to His great mercy. Elohim does not lie; He will not let my enemy the devil snatch me out of His hands. By “free will,” not one person can be saved. But by free grace, many will be saved. Not only so, but I am glad to know that as a Messianist, I please Elohim—not because of what I do but because of His grace. If
I work too little or too badly, He graciously pardons me and makes me better. This is the glory of all Messianists.

Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

Some words have been edited for the sake of accuracy.

Then you have a very different definition of free will than others do.

God equipped you with all that you need to overcome
all the dangers, difficulties, and devils that I have to fight.

The adversary cannot snatch the gift of eternal life from you. God gave it to you and it is permanently yours, it is seed which cannot be corrupted. I Peter 1:23. It is eternal seed from the eternal God. The seed is yours as eternally as God is eternal.

You are forever a child of God.
 

daqq

Well-known member
I was reading a tract this morning and found great comfort is this truth:

I confess that I would not want “free will” even if it were given to me! If my salvation were left to me, I would be no match for all the dangers, difficulties, and devils that I have to fight. But even if there were no enemies to fight, I could never be certain of success. I would never be sure I had pleased Elohim or whether there was something more I needed to do. I can prove this from my own painful experience over many years. But, my salvation is in Elohim’s hands and not my own. He will be trustworthy to His promise to save me, not on the basis of what I do but according to His great mercy. Elohim does not lie; He will not let my enemy the devil snatch me out of His hands. By “free will,” not one person can be saved. But by free grace, many will be saved. Not only so, but I am glad to know that as a Messianist, I please Elohim—not because of what I do but because of His grace. If I work too little or too badly, He graciously pardons me and makes me better. This is the glory of all Messianists.

Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

Some words have been edited for the sake of accuracy.

Wiki --
Luther's attitude toward the Jews changed over the course of his life. In the early phase of his career—until around 1536—he expressed concern for their plight in Europe and was enthusiastic at the prospect of converting them to Christianity through his religious reforms. Being unsuccessful in that, in his later career, Luther denounced Judaism and called for harsh persecution of its followers, so that they might not be allowed to teach. In a paragraph from his On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them.[1] Moreover, he proposed "What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":[1]


  • "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
  • "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
  • "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
  • "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
  • "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
  • "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
  • "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

Anti-Jewish agitation
Luther successfully campaigned against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia. In August 1536 Luther's prince, Elector of Saxony John Frederick, issued a mandate that prohibited Jews from inhabiting, engaging in business in, or passing through his realm. An Alsatian shtadlan, Rabbi Josel of Rosheim, asked a reformer Wolfgang Capito to approach Luther in order to obtain an audience with the prince, but Luther refused every intercession.[5] In response to Josel, Luther referred to his unsuccessful attempts to convert the Jews: "... I would willingly do my best for your people but I will not contribute to your [Jewish] obstinacy by my own kind actions. You must find another intermediary with my good lord."[6] Heiko Oberman notes this event as significant in Luther's attitude toward the Jews: "Even today this refusal is often judged to be the decisive turning point in Luther's career from friendliness to hostility toward the Jews."[7]

Josel of Rosheim, who tried to help the Jews of Saxony, wrote in his memoir that their situation was "due to that priest whose name was Martin Luther — may his body and soul be bound up in hell!! — who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[8] Robert Michael, Professor Emeritus of European History at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth writes that Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works; they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden argued in a sermon that his parishioners should murder Jews.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

On the Jews and Their Lies
Main article: On the Jews and Their Lies
In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19] Luther claims that Jewish history was "assailed by much heresy", and that Christ swept away the Jewish heresy and goes on to do so, "as it still does daily before our eyes." He stigmatizes Jewish Prayer as being "blasphemous" (sic) and a lie, and vilifies Jews in general as being spiritually "blind" and "surely possessed by all devils." Luther has a special spiritual problem with Jewish circumcision.[20][21] The full context in which Martin Luther advocated that Jews be slain in On the Jews and Their Lies is as follows in Luther's own words:

There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses - namely, that God has struck [the Jews] with 'madness and blindness and confusion of mind' [Deuteronomy 28:28]. So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them.[22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

Influence on modern antisemitism
The prevailing view[31] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[32] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[33] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[34] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Martin Sasse, Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, published a compendium of Martin Luther's writings ; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[35]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

So your changing of the term "Christian" to "Messianist" in the words of Luther, the virulent consummate anti-Semite, are an affront and the height of hypocrisy. Leave it the way it is: both Luther and Hitler claimed to be Christians, not Messianists.
 

Truster

New member
Wiki --
Luther's attitude toward the Jews changed over the course of his life. In the early phase of his career—until around 1536—he expressed concern for their plight in Europe and was enthusiastic at the prospect of converting them to Christianity through his religious reforms. Being unsuccessful in that, in his later career, Luther denounced Judaism and called for harsh persecution of its followers, so that they might not be allowed to teach. In a paragraph from his On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them.[1] Moreover, he proposed "What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":[1]


  • "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
  • "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
  • "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
  • "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
  • "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
  • "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
  • "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

Anti-Jewish agitation
Luther successfully campaigned against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia. In August 1536 Luther's prince, Elector of Saxony John Frederick, issued a mandate that prohibited Jews from inhabiting, engaging in business in, or passing through his realm. An Alsatian shtadlan, Rabbi Josel of Rosheim, asked a reformer Wolfgang Capito to approach Luther in order to obtain an audience with the prince, but Luther refused every intercession.[5] In response to Josel, Luther referred to his unsuccessful attempts to convert the Jews: "... I would willingly do my best for your people but I will not contribute to your [Jewish] obstinacy by my own kind actions. You must find another intermediary with my good lord."[6] Heiko Oberman notes this event as significant in Luther's attitude toward the Jews: "Even today this refusal is often judged to be the decisive turning point in Luther's career from friendliness to hostility toward the Jews."[7]

Josel of Rosheim, who tried to help the Jews of Saxony, wrote in his memoir that their situation was "due to that priest whose name was Martin Luther — may his body and soul be bound up in hell!! — who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[8] Robert Michael, Professor Emeritus of European History at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth writes that Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works; they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden argued in a sermon that his parishioners should murder Jews.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

On the Jews and Their Lies
Main article: On the Jews and Their Lies
In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19] Luther claims that Jewish history was "assailed by much heresy", and that Christ swept away the Jewish heresy and goes on to do so, "as it still does daily before our eyes." He stigmatizes Jewish Prayer as being "blasphemous" (sic) and a lie, and vilifies Jews in general as being spiritually "blind" and "surely possessed by all devils." Luther has a special spiritual problem with Jewish circumcision.[20][21] The full context in which Martin Luther advocated that Jews be slain in On the Jews and Their Lies is as follows in Luther's own words:

There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses - namely, that God has struck [the Jews] with 'madness and blindness and confusion of mind' [Deuteronomy 28:28]. So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them.[22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

Influence on modern antisemitism
The prevailing view[31] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[32] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[33] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[34] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Martin Sasse, Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, published a compendium of Martin Luther's writings ; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[35]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

So your changing of the term "Christian" to "Messianist" in the words of Luther, the virulent consummate anti-Semite, are an affront and the height of hypocrisy. Leave it the way it is: both Luther and Hitler claimed to be Christians, not Messianists.

Wow, I'm really impressed. You can type a subject into a search engine and then cut and paste the contents.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Wow, I'm really impressed. You can type a subject into a search engine and then cut and paste the contents.

Do you suppose I did not already know those things? Do you enjoy lying to yourself to make yourself feel superior? But perhaps you might try some copying and pasting also instead of taking the words of famous, (and infamous), people and changing their words to suit your fanciful whims.
 

Truster

New member
Do you suppose I did not already know those things? Do you enjoy lying to yourself to make yourself feel superior? But perhaps you might try some copying and pasting also instead of taking the words of famous, (and infamous), people and changing their words to suit your fanciful whims.


You are in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. You walk in the vanity of your mind.
 

daqq

Well-known member
You are in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. You walk in the vanity of your mind.

Aye, aye, aye, not the Simon the sorcerer accusation again, eh?
Where did I ever offer you money for the Holy Spirit? :rotfl:

Again, you make false accusations without any evidence whatsoever.
Who taught you to do that? :rotfl:
 

Truster

New member
Aye, aye, aye, not the Simon the sorcerer accusation again, eh?
Where did I ever offer you money for the Holy Spirit? :rotfl:

Again, you make false accusations without any evidence whatsoever.
Who taught you to do that? :rotfl:

Your reward is not money but the puffed up, know all feeling you covet. You might well fool the gullible, but you can never fool us*.

us* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Your reward is not money but the puffed up, know all feeling you covet. You might well fool the gullible, but you can never fool us*.

us* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.

Lol, yes, of course, no one can fool you*, Martin Luther really did claim to be a Messianist instead of a Christian!

you* one who deems himself regenerated, and therefore in his highly exalted mind giving him the right to put words into the mouths of dead people who cannot defend themselves, and giving him the right to freely make false accusations about whosoever he wills, even though he hypocritically claims to have no free will, and imagining in the machinations of his vain imagination that there will be no eternal ramifications for utterly disregarding the commandments of the Master. :chuckle:
 

Truster

New member
Lol, yes, of course, no one can fool you*, Martin Luther really did claim to be a Messianist instead of a Christian!

you* one who deems himself regenerated, and therefore in his highly exalted mind giving him the right to put words into the mouths of dead people who cannot defend themselves, and giving him the right to freely make false accusations about whosoever he wills, even though he hypocritically claims to have no free will, and imagining in the machinations of his vain imagination that there will be no eternal ramifications for utterly disregarding the commandments of the Master. :chuckle:

I have the right and duty to correct mistranslations and false doctrine. The regenerate shall recognise the truth and love it. The rest of you will deny and hate the truth and revile us* who expose the lies and defend the truth and the trust.

us* the holy.
 

daqq

Well-known member
I have the right and duty to correct mistranslations and false doctrine. The regenerate shall recognise the truth and love it. The rest of you will deny and hate the truth and revile us* who expose the lies and defend the truth and the trust.

us* the holy.

Translation: "I* have the right to alter the words of Martin Luther to suit my fantasies."

I* Truster claiming himself to be holy.
 
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