Justification by Faith !

[jsanford108]

This doctrine put forth has two large paradoxes.

First off, the false equating of belief to "work." To say that "justified by faith" means Christ's faith, then what good is our faith? Obviously, Christ had faith. He is the incarnation of faith. This application of "justification by faith" is simply wrong. Faith is a free will act. Faith is believing. Simple belief, while being a technical "work," is more akin to an "act." No one classifies believing as a "work." This is simply preposterous.

Second, if we have no choice in faith, then what point is there in belief? If we, as humanity, have no control over "faith," then one cannot blame the "unregenerate" for a lack of "faith," since it was never imputed upon them. Furthermore, if this is the case, then the logical conclusion IS that God damns people to hell, by His own actions. If God never imparts this "faith," then the Lost are not lost by their own doing, but by God's doing. God in effect has chosen to damn these people to eternal punishment.

This entire doctrine, where faith is not an act of free will, and that God chooses people to save and to damn, is contrary to all of Scripture. It is contrary to the Words of Christ, Himself. It would render the Crucifixion and Resurrection useless. And most of all, it is illogical and goes against Truth, as well as, attributes of God/Christ.


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[Nanja]

Faith is believing. Simple belief, while being a technical "work," is more akin to an "act." No one classifies believing as a "work." This is simply preposterous.

Unless a person is Born of the Spirit, his own faith he exercises in his carnal mind is nothing but a work [ergon] of the flesh that can't please God Rom. 8:7-8.


ergon, G2041:

II. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1


So that classifies one's own faith as a work!


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Therefore, to be Justified by Faith is when those who have been Justified by the Blood of Christ 2 Tim. 1:9 Rom. 5:9, 19 have it revealed to God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 by His Spirit in New Birth Rom. 8:9.

 

[Epoisses]

This doctrine put forth has two large paradoxes.

First off, the false equating of belief to "work." To say that "justified by faith" means Christ's faith, then what good is our faith? Obviously, Christ had faith. He is the incarnation of faith. This application of "justification by faith" is simply wrong. Faith is a free will act. Faith is believing. Simple belief, while being a technical "work," is more akin to an "act." No one classifies believing as a "work." This is simply preposterous.

Second, if we have no choice in faith, then what point is there in belief? If we, as humanity, have no control over "faith," then one cannot blame the "unregenerate" for a lack of "faith," since it was never imputed upon them. Furthermore, if this is the case, then the logical conclusion IS that God damns people to hell, by His own actions. If God never imparts this "faith," then the Lost are not lost by their own doing, but by God's doing. God in effect has chosen to damn these people to eternal punishment.

This entire doctrine, where faith is not an act of free will, and that God chooses people to save and to damn, is contrary to all of Scripture. It is contrary to the Words of Christ, Himself. It would render the Crucifixion and Resurrection useless. And most of all, it is illogical and goes against Truth, as well as, attributes of God/Christ.


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Faith is not a choice, look up the words in the dictionary.

 

[jsanford108]

Unless a person is Born of the Spirit, his own faith he exercises in his carnal mind is nothing but a work [ergon] of the flesh that can't please God Rom. 8:7-8.


ergon, G2041:

II. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1


So that classifies one's own faith as a work!


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Therefore, to be Justified by Faith is when those who have been Justified by the Blood of Christ 2 Tim. 1:9 Rom. 5:9, 19 have it revealed to God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 by His Spirit in New Birth Rom. 8:9.

You are utilizing the blue letter bible's interpretation, rather than simply reading what is written. The Blue Letter is not the authority on the Bible, is it? Yet, it is being treated like it is. (which is hypocritical when people who accuse Catholicism of this very same thing)

Furthermore, nowhere in Paul's letter to the Romans, is "faith alone" found. Nowhere in the Bible does the phrase "faith alone" appear, except in James, where it says "not by faith alone." To imply that "faith alone" is biblical is simply promoting falsehood.

Despite all this, "faith" is a grace we receive. But accepting that faith is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

 

[jsanford108]

Faith is not a choice, look up the words in the dictionary.

As I stated to Nanja, faith is a grace. Grace is any blessing/gift that God imparts to us. However, man, in their free will, can accept or reject these graces. Accepting that faith/grace is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

 

[Epoisses]

As I stated to Nanja, faith is a grace. Grace is any blessing/gift that God imparts to us. However, man, in their free will, can accept or reject these graces. Accepting that faith/grace is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

You don't have free will. Your will is in bondage to sin so that from birth you will always make the wrong decision and never choose what God wants. This is the 'will power' that you possess.

 

[jsanford108]

You don't have free will. Your will is in bondage to sin so that from birth you will always make the wrong decision and never choose what God wants. This is the 'will power' that you possess.

If we do not have free will, then why do these verses, guided by the Holy Spirit, point to fee will and choice:

Genesis 2
Joshua 24:15
Deuteronomy 30:19&20
Ezekiel 18:30-32
Isaiah 55:6&7
Romans 10:9&10
1 Corinthians 10:13
Galations 5
2 Peter 3

Christ's Words:
Mark 8:34
Revelation 3:20

These are just a few verses that specifically declare we have free will. There are more that allude to free will, such as John 3.




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[jsanford108]

You don't have free will. Your will is in bondage to sin so that from birth you will always make the wrong decision and never choose what God wants. This is the 'will power' that you possess.

If there is no free will, then the logical conclusion is that God has ordained mankind to go to hell or heaven; erasing hope itself for those pre-ordained for hell. If there is no free will, God is evil. (We know this cannot be so, therefore, logically and supported by Scripture, free will exists)


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[Epoisses]

If there is no free will, then the logical conclusion is that God has ordained mankind to go to hell or heaven; erasing hope itself for those pre-ordained for hell. If there is no free will, God is evil. (We know this cannot be so, therefore, logically and supported by Scripture, free will exists)


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No the logical conclusion is that you don't see yourself as a sinner where your every thought, word and deed are corrupt. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of this and you humbly acknowledge it then you begin to make right decisions. Christians today are merely going thru the motions of their religion without even acknowledging their true condition. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and if you're not one then he can't help you.

 

[beloved57]

See, Faith is a work, in that its an Spiritual Grace/ Fruit Gal 5:22, so it can have no other way to Justify one but in the declarative sense. See God alone is the One who Justifieth Rom 8:33

[33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.


See, Spiritual fruit is contrasted to works of the flesh Gal 5:19-20

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

And these works are done with or in the mind or heart. For instance Adultery, Jesus says its a work or done in the heart /mind Matt 5:28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The word heart in the greek means:

the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

So by works of the flesh being contrasted to fruit of the Spirit, works and fruit are interchangeable denoting activities of the mind at work.

So unless we are careful to understand Justification by Faith to be declarative before our own conscience, and not an act of our mind that causes God to Justify us before Himself, then we shall error into Justification before God by our works, the fruit of our minds.

 

[beloved57]

You are utilizing the blue letter bible's interpretation, rather than simply reading what is written. The Blue Letter is not the authority on the Bible, is it? Yet, it is being treated like it is. (which is hypocritical when people who accuse Catholicism of this very same thing)

Furthermore, nowhere in Paul's letter to the Romans, is "faith alone" found. Nowhere in the Bible does the phrase "faith alone" appear, except in James, where it says "not by faith alone." To imply that "faith alone" is biblical is simply promoting falsehood.

Despite all this, "faith" is a grace we receive. But accepting that faith is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

Invalid and evasive comments conducive to rabbit trail. Not one scripture !

 

[Squeaky]

Faith-Works-Love (By Themselves they are only principles) But together they are righteousness.

People are trying to make a conclusion out of pieces and parts. It cant be done. Faith alone won't get you to heaven. Works alone won't get you to heaven. Love alone won't get you to heaven. That is the only conclusion.

XXX If all you have to present to God is faith, YOU ARE NOTHING.
1 Cor 13:1-2

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
James 2:14
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James 2:24
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Rom 16:26
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
(NKJ)

XXX You are saved by grace through faith. But that is NOT SALVATION. Faith only works through love.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(NKJ)


Luke 6:32-33
32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
(NKJ)

xxx Some stand on faith and some stand on works and some stand on love. They are all principles, they have to be together. So many on here are argueing just one point or part of a whole. You need to understand. Faith without works or love is dead. Works without faith or love is vanity. Love without faith or works is useless. Love is NOT AN EMOTION. Love is an action.

So many are running on blind faith. They dont even know what faith is. In reality their useing trust as faith. Their different. Your faith should be in what is written, all of it. But faith alone will NOT get you to heaven. Works alone will NOT get you to heaven. Love alone will not get you to heaven. What you need is the true faith in the Word of God. If you have the true faith in the Word of God you would try your best to do the works that are in the Word. Now love is NOT a feeling but an action. And the only way to learn what Godly love is would be to do the works. That is how you learn what love is by trying to do the works. In the Word that you have put your faith in.


Rom 5:1-4
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Eph 2:18-20
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
Eph 3:12
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
(NKJ)

xxx Do you have real faith, or blind faith?? The true faith only works through love. True love is to suffer wrongfully. Your real faith only works when you are suffering wrongfully.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 1:5-6
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
(NKJ)

 

[jsanford108]

No the logical conclusion is that you don't see yourself as a sinner where your every thought, word and deed are corrupt. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of this and you humbly acknowledge it then you begin to make right decisions. Christians today are merely going thru the motions of their religion without even acknowledging their true condition. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and if you're not one then he can't help you.

Your "logical conclusion" doesn't have anything to do with my statement.

Also, I have acknowledged that I am a sinner. And with your claim that all I do is corrupt, then would acts of charity be corrupt? Would my thoughts of "wow, God is so great," be corrupt? This goes against the idea of God giving us the grace of conscience. Even atheists can do "good."

Would you say the elect are without sin? For if they sin but once, they are sinners. But this flies against the "logic" of your doctrine of election. If a doctrine is illogical and contradictory, then it is a falsehood.


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[jsanford108]

Invalid and evasive comments conducive to rabbit trail. Not one scripture !

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they do.

And it is completely on topic. You just seem to dislike the facts put forth.


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[beloved57]

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they do.

And it is completely on topic. You just seem to dislike the facts put forth.


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More worthless and invalid comments.

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[Nanja]

God didn't damn people before the world began

The scriptures prove your error.


The goats were already condemned that's why they shall not believe on Christ.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mat. 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [Sheep], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

They, the goats, are cursed because their sins were not imputed to Christ, as these His Sheep were:

Rom. 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


The sins of Christ's Sheep were imputed to Him Is. 53:6 their Surety Heb. 7:22, and therefore abjured Righteous by Christ's Blood according to God's Law and Justice from everlasting Rev. 13:8; Heb. 13:20; Rom. 5:9.

 

[Epoisses]

Your "logical conclusion" doesn't have anything to do with my statement.

Also, I have acknowledged that I am a sinner. And with your claim that all I do is corrupt, then would acts of charity be corrupt? Would my thoughts of "wow, God is so great," be corrupt? This goes against the idea of God giving us the grace of conscience. Even atheists can do "good."

Would you say the elect are without sin? For if they sin but once, they are sinners. But this flies against the "logic" of your doctrine of election. If a doctrine is illogical and contradictory, then it is a falsehood.


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Many acknowledge themselves as sinners intellectually but don't truly see themselves as such inwardly. Someone with real conviction of sin who has come to repentance and conversion doesn't speak the way you do.

 

[Epoisses]

The scriptures prove your error.


The goats were already condemned that's why they shall not believe on Christ.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mat. 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [Sheep], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

They, the goats, are cursed because their sins were not imputed to Christ, as these His Sheep were:

Rom. 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


The sins of Christ's Sheep were imputed to Him Is. 53:6 their Surety Heb. 7:22, and therefore abjured Righteous by Christ's Blood according to God's Law and Justice from everlasting Rev. 13:8; Heb. 13:20; Rom. 5:9.

Those are verses that speak of faith or non-faith in the experience of life not before the world began! You are so wedded to your delusions that you can't even read properly.

 

[jsanford108]

Many acknowledge themselves as sinners intellectually but don't truly see themselves as such inwardly. Someone with real conviction of sin who has come to repentance and conversion doesn't speak the way you do.

They don't speak logically and sincerely? That doesn't sound like conversion.


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[beloved57]

The scriptures prove your error.


The goats were already condemned that's why they shall not believe on Christ.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mat. 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [Sheep], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

They, the goats, are cursed because their sins were not imputed to Christ, as these His Sheep were:

Rom. 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


The sins of Christ's Sheep were imputed to Him Is. 53:6 their Surety Heb. 7:22, and therefore abjured Righteous by Christ's Blood according to God's Law and Justice from everlasting Rev. 13:8; Heb. 13:20; Rom. 5:9.

God made wicked men for the day of evil. Prov 16:4

[FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.[/FONT]