Hyper-Calvinists are a strange group of fanatics.
John Calvin said this....
- Thread starter Clete
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Those "people" accuse God for everything bad, evil, wicked, etc. According
to them, It's God's will.
to them, It's God's will.
Cedarbay
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How is a hyper-Calvinist different from a general Calvinist?
IOW - what points are they interpreting differently from the typical Calvinist who subscribes to: Canons of Dordt, Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, II Helvetic, Westminster Confession of Faith?
Cedarbay
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Clete - I hope you don't mind another quote from Calvin:
“The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but of life. It cannot be grasped by reason and memory only, but it is fully understood when it possesses the whole soul and penetrates to the inner recesses of the heart.”
― John Calvin, Golden Booklet of the True Christian Life
“The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but of life. It cannot be grasped by reason and memory only, but it is fully understood when it possesses the whole soul and penetrates to the inner recesses of the heart.”
― John Calvin, Golden Booklet of the True Christian Life
Cedarbay
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Indeed, I don't believe that is what God does. There seems to be confusion among Christians, in distinguishing God's providence, decrees, and fore-knowledge. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.
So you are asking us to believe something that you haven't figured out for yourself?
Or could it be that you have a really humble attitude in admitting that you aren't all there yet and that your argument consists of: because I am so humble about it, therefore you should believe me?
Just wondering.
It is unbelievably dark
This is one of his many tacit admissions that his doctrine makes no sense.
This sort of thinking is common throughout the world. False religions don't have to make sense because if they did, no one would believe in any of them. Instead, the followers use the fact that they believe in spite of the testimony of their mind and sound reason as proof of their piety and faith. It is false religions that have made faith into "belief in the absence of evidence" a concept that is foreign to the bible and will contribute to the damnation of millions.
Resting in Him,
Clete
John Calvin did!
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)
”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)
Scripture please?
Cedarbay
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I'm not asking you to believe me, Desert Reign. I am the least humble person, as my family will attest to.
I still struggle with the idea that God "commands" evil. I do believe He allows evil for our benefit, both for those who believe in Him and for those who don't.
Romans 8:28 - has become the place in which to rest and trust in Christ.
Agree entirely. Well said. If the result of a good Christian life is that the Gospel 'is fully understood', then there ought to be words to explain that understanding. For Calvin and people like B57 ("The Lord does not love everybody, nor is it his purpose to save everybody.") the words they use to convey their understanding are not acceptable and are clearly seen as opposite to the Gospel. Whilst for the majority of Calvinists, being unwilling to confront the enormity of the grotesque picture these words paint of God, they resort to ear-muffling techniques such as 'I haven't grasped it all myself even' or 'It's a mystery that no one can fully comprehend' or 'We are all sinful beings and cannot understand it' or 'God is beyond logic, therefore it is bound not to make much sense to our finite minds.' All sorts of ruses to avoid having to confront the truth of the immorality of their own doctrine. The moment their doctrine becomes coherent, it is seen for what it is and is brought to light. All the subterfuges are only to prevent it from coming to light, thus proving that it is in fact a work of darkness.
Cedarbay
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Clete - I don't know how you can get false doctrine from one little quote.
Calvin certainly was not perfect, nor was Luther, Augustine, Wesley, etc.
Cedarbay
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The thing is Desert Reign, I don't want to go the way of some who shout "tulip" on every post and the other way of saying that there is no concrete doctrine in Scripture.
I also am developing and learning about hermeneutics and exegesis which is critical in interpreting the bible. It all takes time.
Thank you CB. If you struggle with it then why not simply reject it? Isn't that the simplest course?
Here is my reaction to your specific point:
Evil is a relative term. What is evil for one is good for another. If your shares go up, it is great if you bought them but it is bad if you shorted them. Absolute good and absolute evil are Platonic terms that have no meaning in the real world. In the real world, everything is relative to everything else. That's what reality is.
What is more important to me is to be able to clearly answer the question of whether you think God is magnified and glorified by the idea that he creates people, the vast majority, with the express purpose of damning them to endless conscious torment, giving them no opportunity for salvation and then blaming this on them - for the sole purpose of making the few that he creates for eternal life feel how lucky they are to be shown the mercy of God.
Thank you for not asking me to believe you. I only ask in turn that you answer the question for yourself without resorting to prevarication. And it would be great to hear your answer too, but of prime importance is that it is clear in your own mind.
Well first of all it's quite a quote. Someone with a theology proper that was even close to biblical, could never say such a thing.
More importantly however, I don't get my understanding of Calvinism's false doctrine from a single quote. I've been studying this stuff my whole adult life.
Not perfect? You've got to be kidding me!
We anti-Calvinists get accused of misrepresenting the beliefs and doctrines of Calvinism all the time. "Red herring" this and and "ad hominem" that. Then when you go to the horse's mouth and produce direct quotes which are then followed up with Calvinists defending the "truths" contained in those quotes, all of a sudden it's no longer that we are misrepresenting Calvinism's doctrine but that Calvin himself is not the proper source for establishing what that doctrine is because "Calvin wasn't perfect".
Well you're damn right he wasn't perfect! He was very far away from anything resembling perfect. He was howeve the source of what is known today as Calvinism which is nothing more really than a formalization of reformed Augustinian theology. Augustine believed all this stuff, Luther (an Augustinian monk) believed all this stuff and John Calvin wrote it all down in a systematic fashion.
The quotes I've presented here and the quotes I will be presenting are an accurate depiction of not just Calvin's doctrine but that of Calvinism as well. All of it follows logically from a single premise. That premise being the pagan Greek notion of the absolute immutability of God. It is their Cardinal doctrine without which the whole system falls to dust.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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RevTestament
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Please elaborate
RevTestament
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They do not see the cold, pre-planned, non-caring god in their doctrine. God is a stone in the gospel because of His resolute stalwartness for us and willingness to show us the way - not because He is cold, and does not listen to us. As He says He is not a stone idol, who can not see, nor hear, nor walk.
Cedarbay
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It seems imprudent to simply reject a thought or teaching out of hand.
I don't recall a teaching from anyone of the Reformation where God gives a number of saved vs unsaved.
How can one prevaricate in a simple exchange like this? Aren't we both trying to find the truth?