John 3:5 defines the new birth as water baptism and Spirit baptism

[Jdorman]

Salvation is by grace through faith, not by water.

Faith includes obedience.

When two people are married they are done so by one who has the authority to marry. They may be required to get a marriage license first but they are still not marrying themselves nor is their marriage of their own power. It's still completely based on the priest or judge or what have you.

In the same way, God requires water baptism for salvation but it is still completely by His grace that we are saved. Acts 2:38

 

[Bright Raven]

The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be an unbelievably ridiculous statement for Paul to make. Further, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?

Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does Acts 22:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. From gotquestions.org

 

[Jdorman]

You overlook the fact that the context indicates that the words : born of water and of the Spirit" is exactly the same thing as being "born of the Spirit":

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:5-8).​

As I indicated earlier, this passage only speaks of one source of birth and not two. And the following words of the Lord Jesus shows us how one receives life when born again:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

And this matches perfectly with what Peter says here about how a person is "born again":

"

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

EXACTLY! There is only one thing which results in the new birth, and that is the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. And the gospel brings salvation to all who believe it:

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Simple as can be!

According to this view, Jesus actually meant, "You must be born of water, which is the Spirit." Of course, a few passages do liken the Spirit to water (John 4:14; 7:38). However, there are several difficulties if we try to apply this symbolism to John 3:5: (1) The natural, ordinary reading of the verse makes a distinction between water and Spirit, and all major translations preserve this distinction; (2) Many other passages indicate that water and Spirit are two separate aspects of the gospel message. (See Chapter 3 - The Gospel of Jesus Christ.); (3) In his later writings, John preserved the distinction between water and Spirit as they relate to salvation. "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (I John 5:8); If John 3:5 actually equates water and Spirit, John would not have separated the two so sharply in I John 5:8, especially since both verses deal with the same subject (salvation).

Read the book here http://web.archive.org/web/20090318...puserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Top.htm

 

[Jdorman]

The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be an unbelievably ridiculous statement for Paul to make. Further, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?

Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does Acts 22:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Does Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. From gotquestions.org

This is not a works based salvation.

When two people are married they are done so by one who has the authority to marry. They may be required to get a marriage license first but they are still not marrying themselves nor is their marriage of their own power. It's still completely based on the priest or judge or what have you.

In the same way, God requires water baptism for salvation but it is still completely by His grace that we are saved. Acts 2:38

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Amen I say, I SAY AMEN.!!! They have to obey Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They have to, if not damnnation unto these Scribes and Pharisees. They are trying to use man wisdom. And it's so simple, the devil have these people mind and the bible say he do.

1 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Hallelujah I thank God that it's not hid from you Jdorman, I thank God it's not hid from Squeaky, I thank God it's not hid to Trubosixx, I thank God it's not hid from Simpleman77, but it's hid from everybody that say you don't need the water baptism for salvation. That's a doctrine from the devil. And everybody that say you don't need it is a devil and you don't deserve God speed.

You preach false doctrine. You're only 21, start reading/studying the writings of the Apostle Paul. He preaches the Grace Gospel, which is the only Gospel for today. Peter was preaching to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel, not to the Body of Christ.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Acts 2:38 was for the House of Israel, COG.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Ezekiel 36 is about return from exile, not the New Covenant. SO this isn't related material.

:chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

 

[Jdorman]

The Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

In an attempt to denigrate the importance of baptism, some quote Paul's statement, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (I Corinthians 1:17). Just prior to this verse Paul reproved the Corinthians because they had formed factions, some claiming to follow Paul, some Apollos, some Cephas, and some Christ (I Corinthians 1:11-13). Paul expressed relief that he had personally baptized only a few of them. No one could accuse him of trying to start his own following or to baptize in his own name (I Corinthians 1:14-16). As far as Paul was concerned, others could have the honor of baptizing, but he had a special calling to preach. It did not matter who performed the ceremony, but only that the gospel be preached.

In this way, Paul emphasized to the Corinthians that salvation comes solely through Christ, not through great leaders. Instead of looking to the personalities who had preached and administered baptism to them, they needed to look to Jesus and His gospel. As Bruce noted in The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, Paul's "references to baptism in I Cor. i. 14-17 do not mean that he regarded the sacrament itself as unimportant, but that the identity of the baptizer was unimportant. He takes it for granted that all the members of the Corinthian church were baptized." [50] Paul's correction of the Corinthians in no way detracted from the importance of baptism as part of the gospel, which he taught in many other passages.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

According to this view, Jesus actually meant, "You must be born of water, which is the Spirit." Of course, a few passages do liken the Spirit to water (John 4:14; 7:38). However, there are several difficulties if we try to apply this symbolism to John 3:5: (1) The natural, ordinary reading of the verse makes a distinction between water and Spirit, and all major translations preserve this distinction;

Yes, but that does not mean that the word "water" is not used in a figurative sense. And again, "water" is the type and the "word"is the anti-type. And this is proven by what the Lord Jesus said here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

If 'water" is necessary for bringing life then why would the Lord Jesus leave that out? According to Him the word is Spirit and that is what is referred to here in "bold":

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:5-8).​

Of course the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit so anyone who is made alive by the gospel can be said to have been "born of the Spirit":

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).​

So simple!

 

[Jdorman]

Yes, but that does not mean that the word "water" is not used in a figurative sense. And again, "water" is the type and the "word"is the anti-type. And this is proven by what the Lord Jesus said here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

If 'water" is necessary for bringing life then why would the Lord Jesus leave that out? According to Him the word is Spirit and that is what is referred to here in "bold":

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:5-8).​

Of course the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit so anyone who is made alive by the gospel can be said to have been "born of the Spirit":

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).​

So simple!

I guess we are at the point of agree to disagree

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul's correction of the Corinthians in no way detracted from the importance of baptism as part of the gospel, which he taught in many other passages.

Yes, but what Paul taught later demonstrates that water baptism no longer has a place at this time:

"Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:3-6).​

There is just one baptism which has a place in the church today and that baptism is not water baptism. Instead, it is this one:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I guess we are at the point of agree to disagree

OK, but I am curious why you think that the Lord Jesus would fail to mention "water" or "water baptism" in this verse:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).[/quote]

Could you at least answer that?

Thanks!​

 

[Jdorman]

Yes, but what Paul taught later demonstrates that water baptism no longer has a place at this time:

"Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:3-6).​

There is just one baptism which has a place in the church today and that baptism is not water baptism. Instead, it is this one:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

One baptism could simply be emphasizing that we are all of Jesus name. Not divided by many baptisms based on who baptized us.

The new birth of john 3:5 should be seen as one event with two parts

 

[Jdorman]

OK, but I am curious why you think that the Lord Jesus would fail to mention "water" or "water baptism" in this verse:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Could you at least answer that?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Because the Spirit does all the saving , He just uses baptism as a part of that.​

 

[patrick jane]

I always pay attention to Jerry Shugart's posts - he is never wrong

 

[Rivers]

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), there must be a different interpretation of those verses. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

There are also scriptures which plainly teach that "faith without works is dead by itself" (James 2:14-17)

 

[Rivers]

OK, but I am curious why you think that the Lord Jesus would fail to mention "water" or "water baptism" in this verse:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Good point.

It's interesting that both "flesh" and "spirit" are mentioned in John 6, which is how Jesus explained the difference between "born of water (flesh)" and "born of spirit" in John 3:6.​

 

[COGTHW]

You preach false doctrine. You're only 21, start reading/studying the writings of the Apostle Paul. He preaches the Grace Gospel, which is the only Gospel for today. Peter was preaching to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel, not to the Body of Christ.

Yeah I'm 21 and still know more about God, you can't learn God from website. He is not data. HALLELUJAH. You can't learn God from Greek or Hebrew. He is not language. UHH HALLELUJAH.!!! YOU CANT LEARN GOD FROM TOL.!!! To many Devils on here UHHHHHH HALLELUJAH.!!! YOU GOT TO HAVE THE MIND OF GOD TO KNOW HIM.!!! GOD IS A SPIRIT.!!!!!! HALLELUJAH.!!! THEM THAT WORSHIP MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT.............NOT GREEK.!!!!!! MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT............NOT COMMENTARYS...... IN SPIRIT NOT FROM YOUR UNDERSTANDING. YOU PEOPLE ARE DEVIL WORSHIPPERS.!!! YOU WORSHIP NOT THE TRUTH GOD.!! I TELL YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS, YOU BETTER REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED IN HIS NAME, YOU BETTER CALL ON JESUS FOR THE HOLY GHOST.!!! IF YOU DONT, YOU ALL OUTTA GO TO HELL.!!! YOU OUTTA BE THE FIRST ONE TO HELL.!!! YALL DONT KNOW GOD.!!! YALL KNOW WEBSITES YALL DONT KNOW GOD HALLELUJAH.!!!!! YOU KNOW GREEK AND HEBREW.!!! I KNOW GOD, HALLELUJAH GLORY JESUS CAUSE I HAVE HIS NAME AND MIND.!!!

1 Corinthians 4:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


YOU DONT HAVE GOD CAUSE IF YOU DID, YOU WOULD KNOW HE LOVES WATER.!!!! HALLELUJAH.!!! IN THE BEGINNING HIS SPIRIT ON UPON THE WATER HALLELUJAH.!!! YOU CAN HAVE YOUR WEBSITE BUT I GOT GOD. My God this thing feels good to me.!!! YOU CAN HAVE YOUR TOL BUT I GOT G O D.!!! MY GOD MY GOD.!! YOU CAN HAVE GREEK, HEBREWS AND LATIN... BUT I GOT TONGUES, TONGUES OF ANGLES....TONGUES THAT ONLY GOD CAN UNDERSTAND.!! GLORY......GLORY..!!!!!

 

[Bright Raven]

Yeah I'm 21 and still know more about God, you can't learn God from website. He is not data. HALLELUJAH. You can't learn God from Greek or Hebrew. He is not language. UHH HALLELUJAH.!!! YOU CANT LEARN GOD FROM TOL.!!! To many Devils on here UHHHHHH HALLELUJAH.!!! YOU GOT TO HAVE THE MIND OF GOD TO KNOW HIM.!!! GOD IS A SPIRIT.!!!!!! HALLELUJAH.!!! THEM THAT WORSHIP MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT.............NOT GREEK.!!!!!! MUST WORSHIP IN SPIRIT............NOT COMMENTARYS...... IN SPIRIT NOT FROM YOUR UNDERSTANDING. YOU PEOPLE ARE DEVIL WORSHIPPERS.!!! YOU WORSHIP NOT THE TRUTH GOD.!! I TELL YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS, YOU BETTER REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED IN HIS NAME, YOU BETTER CALL ON JESUS FOR THE HOLY GHOST.!!! IF YOU DONT, YOU ALL OUTTA GO TO HELL.!!! YOU OUTTA BE THE FIRST ONE TO HELL.!!! YALL DONT KNOW GOD.!!! YALL KNOW WEBSITES YALL DONT KNOW GOD HALLELUJAH.!!!!! YOU KNOW GREEK AND HEBREW.!!! I KNOW GOD, HALLELUJAH GLORY JESUS CAUSE I HAVE HIS NAME AND MIND.!!!

1 Corinthians 4:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.


YOU DONT HAVE GOD CAUSE IF YOU DID, YOU WOULD KNOW HE LOVES WATER.!!!! HALLELUJAH.!!! IN THE BEGINNING HIS SPIRIT ON UPON THE WATER HALLELUJAH.!!! YOU CAN HAVE YOUR WEBSITE BUT I GOT GOD. My God this thing feels good to me.!!! YOU CAN HAVE YOUR TOL BUT I GOT G O D.!!! MY GOD MY GOD.!! YOU CAN HAVE GREEK, HEBREWS AND LATIN... BUT I GOT TONGUES, TONGUES OF ANGLES....TONGUES THAT ONLY GOD CAN UNDERSTAND.!! GLORY......GLORY..!!!!!

What a rant. :baby::baby::baby: