Rosenritter
New member
Oh, I see. So we should choose what is changed from the original as evident by being in a small minority and incorrect grammar. Thank you for the clarification.
John 20:28 and the Trinity
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Oh, I see. So we should choose what is changed from the original as evident by being in a small minority and incorrect grammar. Thank you for the clarification.
Rosenritter
New member
Says one of the most famous verses, Deuteronomy 18:15, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee..." confirmed as applicable to Jesus in Acts 3:22, "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up..." and confirmed throughout the breadth of scripture, such as in Psalm 22:16 "they pierced my hands and my feet" and Zechariah 12:10, "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced."
You might want to look up the word "restore" in the dictionary.
Google tells us "restore" means "return (someone or something) to a former condition, place, or position".
John 17:5 KJV
(5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Besides learning what the word "restore" means you might also want to take note that Jesus used the word "I" in John 17:5, not "that thou planned for a future Christ." "Which I had with thee" is speaking of the past tense.
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh .. ASV
1 Tim 3:16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, NASU
1 Tim 3:16 And without argument, great is the secret of religion: He who was seen in the flesh, BBE
1 Tim 3:16 Great beyond all question is the formerly hidden truth underlying our faith: He was manifested physically and proved righteous spiritually ... CJB
1 Tim 3:16 And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, NASB
1 Tim 3:16 And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh .. (from Holman Christian Standard Bible)
1 Tim 3:16 And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh ...Douay-Rheims
1 Tim 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, ESV
1 Tim 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, RSV
Greetings again Rosenritter,
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe that this is the genius of the inspiration of many of the Psalms and Prophets. They record the thoughts, the feelings and the experiences of Jesus. Many are based with a background in David’s life, and his own feelings, but it was God’s providential guidance that ensured that what David experienced, thought and felt was recorded, and God in the process added some additional perspectives in order that this was a match to the circumstances of Jesus. So, yes, many of the records are actually Jesus’ thoughts and feelings in a prophetic form, and God the Father’s prophecies come true. So yes, these words and thoughts of Psalm 22 are Jesus' words and thoughts. I am not really interested in exactly what Apple7 wants, or what great deduction he is making here, as he has not declared what is the significance of his (hidden) postulation. God the Father declares that Mary is the mother of Jesus and this testimony is the truth, and therefore Apple7’s denial or refusal to admit this truth is an empty speculation.
Kind regards
Trevor
oatmeal
Well-known member
Well, show me.
Of course he is.
John 20:28 is not literal but a figure of speech.
Jesus is called god in Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
However if we look at the context and read it to learn something, we find that the God, the Father of the son refers to his son as (oddly enough) as His son, a male offspring, a derivation, a subordinate to God, the Father.
Starting with verse 1 of this chapter we see that the God is superior and has authority over the son of the God.
However, being called god by the God no more makes Jesus to be "the God" than any human that is called god by the God.
See Exodus 7:1 where God makes Moses a god to Pharaoh.
We have to ask ourselves is Moses "the God"? Is The God saying that Moses is now God the Creator? or is the word "god" simply a title given to someone with some kind of authority or superiority, whether genuine or not.
Jesus and other human are referred to as god by The God.
But Jesus is no more "the God" than Moses (or any other human in authority) is The God, the Almighty God
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Absolutely! Jehovah/YHVH God is going to raise up a prophet LIKE MOSES, and Jehovah promised to put HIS words in the prophets mouth.
Jesus FLATLY DENIES responsibility for the words, and states clearly that the words were given him BY HIS FATHER;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Your theory contradicts Jesus' statements.
Rosenritter said:
Of course. That's why the word "restore " isn't in the text..... it is an inaccurate interpretation of the verse.Rosenritter said:
Yes, Jesus is asking for the glory to be GIVEN (NOT "restored") to him, that God planed to give Jesus.Rosenritter said:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.
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I was going off your article. I do not know what to think about the things that you are saying.
Show you something that isn't true? You need the whole Bible for that. Or the New World Translation.
NWL
Active member
This request is rich coming from someone who doesn't even acknowledge or reply to questions or counterarguments.
I'll do it the easy way and post scholarly translations of the verse in question that shows them understanding "diabolos" to be referring to "the Devil" and not a devil. I'll leave it up to you to show me scholarly work where their exegesis shows that "the(singular) devil" relates to demons here in the verse. Good luck.
New International Version
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
New Living Translation
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
English Standard Version
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Berean Study Bible
Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Berean Literal Bible
Be sober-minded; watch. Your adversary the devil prowls about as a roaring lion seeking whom to devour,
New American Standard Bible
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
King James Bible
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Christian Standard Bible
Be sober-minded, be alert. Your adversary the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.
Contemporary English Version
Be on your guard and stay awake. Your enemy, the devil, is like a roaring lion, sneaking around to find someone to attack.
Good News Translation
Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Be serious! Be alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.
International Standard Version
Be clear-minded and alert. Your opponent, the devil, is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
NET Bible
Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour.
New Heart English Bible
Be sober and self-controlled. Be watchful. Your adversary the devil, walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Be alert, be reflective, because your enemy Satan roars like a lion and is walking and seeking whom he may devour.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Keep your mind clear, and be alert. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion as he looks for someone to devour.
New American Standard 1977
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Be temperate and vigilant because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour,
King James 2000 Bible
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:
American King James Version
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:
American Standard Version
Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Douay-Rheims Bible
Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.
Darby Bible Translation
Be vigilant, watch. Your adversary [the] devil as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour.
English Revised Version
Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Webster's Bible Translation
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Weymouth New Testament
Curb every passion, and be on the alert. Your great accuser, the Devil, is going about like a roaring lion to see whom he can devour.
World English Bible
Be sober and self-controlled. Be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Young's Literal Translation
Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,
NWL
Active member
Bowman you are a hypocrite, at times you answer my entire post with with one liners of "context", "Rev20", "show us", "already answered" when none of those things are even correct in the first place.
In one of my last post to you (http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-and-the-Trinity/page39&p=5307647#post5307647) I has over a page and a half of repose to you and the reply back I got other than this post was "Please show the exegetical reasoning for these scholars of yours. Good. Luck.", and you comepletely ingored all reasoning and questions I posed.
YOU are the one who needs to put forth some effort, not me.
NWL
Active member
No, my example shows the ransom is owed to God, it does not say God is not owed the ransom but rather, no man can pay God a ransom, why, because no person since the fall of Adam was unblemished and not committing sin until Jesus arrived. My example proves the point it is to God the ransom is owed, and that if paid, man would live forever since it states "he would not see the pit". This resembles the ransom (of Jesus) ability to impart everlasting life as seen in (Romans 6:23).
The verse in question is about blemished man who is sinful, there is nothing on earth above humans who could compare to the value of what was lost by Adam. God requires an equal sacrifice of what was lost, Adam was unblemished and not sinful when he was made by God. Man, and the time of writing of Psalm 49:7, was. Jesus came and did not sin and was unblemished, knowing only good like Adam, thus he WAS able to offer himself as a ransom.
Jesus was the Lamb of God, he resembled the Lamb that was offered on behalf of the Israelites for their sins, animals though couldn't really wash away man' sins, only Jesus as the lamb of God could.
(John 1:29) “..The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!..”
(Hebrews 10:1-4,10) "..For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would not the sacrifices have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service once cleansed would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 On the contrary, these sacrifices are a reminder of sins year after year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away...By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.."
So, to answer your question, the ransom is paid to God, the same way the animal sacrifices, which were a "shadow of the good things to come", were offered to God. Show me anything to the contrary.
NWL
Active member
Once again your clutching at straws and are using your own understanding in translations scripture and ingoring all others scholars understanding of the original languages. Enlighten the people here on TOL of the translation you have used above RBOWMAN, what scholar agrees with the above translations? I've yet to see a single translation that does as you favor the defintions of words to fit your false assertions.
For the purpose of others on this thread this is how most if not all scholars roughly translate Col 2:13-15:
(Colossians 2:13-15) "..Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. 15 He has stripped the governments and the authorities bare and has publicly exhibited them as conquered, leading them in a triumphal procession by means of it.."
Compare the above with Bowmans/apple7 quoted verse in orange and other translations as through the link https://biblehub.com/colossians/2-14.htm Apple7 twists the language to suit his own twisted understanding.
Once we bring other context and understand into view, this further destroys your argument. Col 2:13-15 is not about all government and authority but the ones that were trying to oppress Jesus in his day. Jesus totally brings all government and authority to nothing, including Satan, when he hands back things to the Father, at that time, only death itself is the last enemy.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-26) "..Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.."
Has Jesus handed back all things to his Father today?
Also you ignored my question in my last post to you that would have answered your confusion if you simply answered the question, If the conquering is regarding the conquering of Satan himself, then why does Jesus say that others will conquer just as he conquered if the conquering(Satan) has already been done?
(Revelation 3:21) "..To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.." detentions
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NWL
Active member
Show us scriptural evidence that suggest only Jesus "as God" could pay the ransom?
I've already answered your question, the ransom is paid to God.
NWL
Active member
Here is a list of points/question you conveniently ignored in your responses to me (and I'm the one who needs to put effort in my replies right? Lol)
1. When is says that Jesus apēlthen/went away does it simply mean that he left the location he was in? Does it have anymore meaning? Answer please.
Matthew 16:4 - "Jesus then left them and apēlthen/went away"
2. Since the Angel apēlthen/went away, does that mean he was bound as you believe Satan was or does it simply mean he left the location, which one is it?
Luke 1:38 - An Angel apēlthen/went away from speaking with Mary
3. Since this apparently proves your point, namely, that when "Satan apēlthen/went away" according to Matthew 13:25 that what it really means is that 'Satan was bound', are you saying that Joseph was bound the same way Satan was bound?
4. Who is the identity of the king of the locusts as mentioned in Rev 9:11, the one named Abandon?
5. Angelic beings and even Jesus himself are compared to as Lions, if you don't believe referring to them as having attributes of Lions infers they are Satan or Demons, based on the argument of consistency how does your argument about the beast in Revelation being demons stand?
6. Once again, did Demons occupy flesh by means of possession or did they occupy flesh the same way Jesus "became flesh" (John 1:14)? Answer please.
7. How does Rev 20 show ONLY God has the power to bind Satan. Once again instead of giving a informed response you post a chapter, how does that answer my question? I might as well answer Genesis Chapter 1 - Revelation 22 in every instance a defense is called upon me, how foolish. show us where the bibles the teaches that only God has the power to bind Satan? And don't forget to show me the post number where you've "apparently" answered this
oatmeal
Well-known member
Yes, exactly, so you had better get started, or you can go back to my post to which you replied which I edited and gave more information in.
As I warned all of TOL members, and have warned for years: It is worthless, not profitable, to engage bible correctors/mystics/agnostics, like this poser-it is akin to rearranging the proverbial deck chairs, on the SS Titanic.
For their "doctrine" determines what the bible is, what it should say, how it should "read;" if a particular verse, passage, in one bible, does not support what they are attempting to "prove," does not agree with their doctrine/interpretation/understanding, they correct that verse(s), passage(s), or find a bible, with a verse that agrees with, supports their doctrine/interpretation/understanding. Thus, they are not bible believers, and can "prove" anything. Correcting a bible, verse, passage, presupposes an authority over it, as they submit the bible(s) to their correction, instead of submitting themselves to the authority, and correction of the bible. The bible is not their final authority-they are their own final authority.
It is that simple. Let them be.I do, as I'm no Forest Gump.
Rosenritter
New member
And I could make a thousand more defective translations like the above given a few minutes with a computer program. Address the source text.
Rosenritter
New member
I'm confused here as to your perspective. You are not acknowledging Jesus as God yet his actual thoughts are recorded far in advance in scripture. The only way that can occur is if his thoughts existed at that time, which would imply either:
a) Jesus also existed at that time, thus his thoughts in response to that situation could be known
b) The world is in a timey-whimey state where the past present and future all exist at the same time and God has a magic scrying ball, thus he read Jesus's thoughts "outside of time"
Spoiler
Rosenritter
New member
When you are specified as having created all things in the contexts of "In the beginning..." that's the context of THE God.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Rather than guess what you are thinking, could you be more specific?
For that matter, is anything I posted a problem for you?
What specifically in my post do you have a problem with?