John 20:28 and the Trinity

[NWL]

Then why haven't you brought out a single one of these scriptures that apparently "pronounce" Satan was bound at the cross? Let me guess, you'll claim you have because you've shown me verse where you've read your own thoughts into the scripture, but in reality it says nothing of the sought.

Still waiting for an 'informed' response from you, other than constant denial without exegesis.

YOU made a claim that "There are scores of scriptures pronouncing that Satan was bound at The Cross", I asked YOU why you haven't produced a single one, and your reply to that is that you're waiting for an informed response from me?! Do you even know what you're writing apple7?

My understanding on this topic is the orthodox one, YOUR position is the unorthodox one, I've asked you to produce a scripture which shows what you've claimed, it is therefore down to you, not me, to exegete your own teachings.

What position have I not explained, what question have I not answered. Once again, provide me with a post number or question/claim you have made where I have not answered. I could provide example after example where you've failed to address question and post, you've got things the wrong way round buddy.

'Saved' from whom?

From sin and death (Romans 6:23) "For the wages sin pays is death".

To whom did Jesus pay His blood ransom?

The ransom of Mans sin is owed to God (Pslams 49:7-8). Thus Jesus ransom too was paid to God.

(Psalms 49:7-9) "..None of them can ever redeem a brother Or give to God a ransom for him, (The ransom price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach). That he should live forever and not see the pit..."

 

[NWL]

Where is this teaching found bionically that Jesus had to be the divine being for death to be meaningful? Again, this is another human created teaching that is not found in the bible.

Here...

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

And here...

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

Where does Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 (the two above verses) show that Jesus needed to be divine or God for his death to be meaningful. Again, stop just posting verse and chapter and explain your claims.

 

[NWL]

Jesus changed the location of worship to Himself and The Holy Spirit, in John 4.

• John 4.21; Worship to The Father is no longer to take place in the Mountain, or in Jerusalem.
• John 4.23 – 24; Jesus declares that the NEW place to worship The Father is in Spirit and Truth, which is to worship in the Person of Jesus Christ, who is the temple, holding the Second and Third Persons’ of the Trinity.
• John 10.36 - 38; The Father is in the Son; The Son is in The Father.
• John 14.6; No one comes to The Father except through Jesus.

You says "Jesus changed the location of worship to Himself and The Holy Spirit", yet, in your statements above you clearly explain it is the father who is ultimately receiving worship as I agree. We are in agreement, we worship the Father in Spirit and truth, through Jesus Christ. :up:

 

[NWL]

Incorrect, witness.

The term 'Christian', as used in scripture, lexically reads as....'The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles'.

This was later perverted and used by anyone claiming to 'follow' Jesus Christ....like JW cult followers, etc...

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5546: Χριστιανός

Χριστιανός (cf. Lightfoot on Philip., p. 16 note), Χριστιανου, ὁ (Χριστός), a Christian, a follower of Christ: Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16. The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles, but from the second century

On the base value it means "follower of Christ" as you can clearly see in red. This is hardly a JW perversion but rather comes from the same source document as the one you used.

 

[NWL]

Matthew 27:60 states that Joseph, after preparing body of Jesus after his death, rolled a stone over the entrance to Jesus tomb and "went away" (apēlthen). What is meant by the usage of apēlthen here? Was Joseph bound like Satan was or did he simply leave the area/location where he had left Jesus body?

The term means to depart in an absolute manner...and that's exactly what Joseph did.

Joseph is NEVER mentioned again in Mat after he departs.

Thanks for PROVING my point, chap!

The point you fail to recognize is that the example above is one of many usages of apēlthen, here are two more examples out of the "40" usages.

Matthew 16:4 - "Jesus then left them and apēlthen/went away"

When is says that Jesus apēlthen/went away does it simply mean that he left the location he was in? Does it have anymore meaning? Answer please.

Luke 1:38 - An Angel apēlthen/went away from speaking with Mary

Since the Angel apēlthen/went away, does that mean he was bound as you believe Satan was or does it simply mean he left the location, which one is it?

Thanks for PROVING my point, chap!

Since this apparently proves your point, namely, that when "Satan apēlthen/went away" according to Matthew 13:25 that what it really means is that 'Satan was bound', are you saying that Joseph was bound the same way Satan was bound? If not then how exactly does it prove your point? Answer please.

 

[NWL]

Jesus stripped The Devil of authority ‘apekdysamenos’ (completed action) and separated him from his demons, at The Cross. Col 2.15

What can you do now, chap?

Where does it reference the Devil in Col 2:15? It doesn't, once again you assume it does.

(Colossians 2:15) "..He [Jesus] has stripped the governments and the authorities bare and has publicly exhibited them as conquered, leading them in a triumphal procession by means of it.."

Jesus had conquered the world prior to his death (John 16:33), so Col 2:15 is nothing new in terms of revelation, nor is it proof that Jesus has bound/conquered Satan himself, since, as already stated, Jesus has conquered the world, and who is the ruler of the world pre-Jesus, Satan, the wicked one. The verse is simply talking about overcoming the world and its natural powers and influence, not Satan himself.

(John 16:33) "..I have said these things to you so that by means of me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world..”

If the conquering is regarding the conquering of Satan himself, then why does Jesus say that other will conquer just as he conquered if the conquering(Satan) has already been done?

(Revelation 3:21) "..To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.."

 

[Dartman]

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:



You lied-nowhere does the bible assert, teach, that man was made in the image and likeness of angels.

Of course it does. It teaches PLAINLY that angels look like men, even calling them "men", and remarking that we can entertain angels unaware, so they are NOT distinguishable from humans.

I agree, they are NOT of our creation, they were there when God created men, and participated as an amazed audience.

Job 38:1-7 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[NWL]

A ransom is paid to someone holding prisoners.

God was holding us prisoner?

You think yourself a scholar and yet you don't know the basics. Psalms 49:7 destroys your statement. Physically yes, a ransom applies to a person holding prisoners, but God is not physical, thus it does not relate in exactly the same way. Jesus was a ransom on behalf of mankind since no sinful man (or animal) can ever be a ransom for man.

(Psalm 49:7) "..None of them can ever redeem a brother Or give to God a ransom for him, 8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach); 9 That he should live forever and not see the pit..."

God is a God of justice, Adam sinned against God thus and became sinful by nature. We inherited this sinful nature through Adam, a sinful man could not pay the debt owed to God for Adams transgression. The only thing that could pay back was what was lost was something of equal or greater value. Since God is a God of justice and only demands something of equal value (Deuteronomy 19:21) that it was was given, namely Jesus, the last Adam.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

ROTFLOL!!!!!

What can I say, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Dartman]

Greetings again Rosenritter, I suggest that your comment (repeated in the spoiler) and question is obscure and I would like to avoid this unless you are more specific in what you are aiming at.

I have stated my basic differences compared to some of the views that you have presented. There is one God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, the Son of God. I feel satisfied in presenting my view of the OT use of Elohim for the Judges and how this helps to understand the subject of this thread John 20:28.

Kind regards
Trevor

I would also like to add the OT and NT usage of "Elohiym/God" regarding the Kings of Israel, a SPECIFIC category of "Judge", found in Psa 45, and referenced in Heb 1:8,9.
The CLARIFICATION there is found in the phrase "...therefore God, EVEN THY GOD..." an obvious, and distinct order of worship!

 

[john w]

Of course it does. It teaches PLAINLY that angels look like men, even calling them "men", and remarking that we can entertain angels unaware, so they are NOT distinguishable from humans.

I agree, they are NOT of our creation, they were there when God created men, and participated as an amazed audience.

Job 38:1-7 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Nowhere is it indicated that God and angels share the same nature, or that humans are in the image of angels.“Image” has no reference to a physical likeness, as you assert.

By making man in God’s image, the LORD God’s intent is to demonstrate his rule and authority over his "territory." Man is his , essentially, his lieutenant/regent. When God declares that we are in his likeness he is essentially saying that we are to be like him...


Genesis 1:26 KJV...


• Be Fruitful
• Multiply
• Fill the earth
• Subdue
• Rule

Angels do not do the above.

My apologies-I forgot-you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again john w,

Nowhere is it indicated ... that humans are in the image of angels.

Psalm 8:5 which is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 indicates that the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26-27 includes the Angels, indicating that man is made in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[john w]

Greetings again john w,Psalm 8:5 which is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 indicates that the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26-27 includes the Angels, indicating that man is made in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

You made that up.

Slower, condescending Christ rejector-you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed, as I only engage bible believers.


Get saved.

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter, I suggest that your comment (repeated in the spoiler) and question is obscure and I would like to avoid this unless you are more specific in what you are aiming at.

I have stated my basic differences compared to some of the views that you have presented. There is one God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is a man, the Son of God. I feel satisfied in presenting my view of the OT use of Elohim for the Judges and how this helps to understand the subject of this thread John 20:28.

Kind regards
Trevor

The question isn't obscure at all. Is there any form of identification you would accept that the being before you is actually God, and not some other angel or human that is holding his ID badge?

 

[Rosenritter]

I said
John 20-28
said
Where do you come up with this stuff??? Thomas knew that God was in Christ. And Thomas was addressing both of them. And so that He wouldn't be rude by leaving one or the other un addressed. He addressed both of them. My Lord Jesus, and also my God the Father.

Now that is starting to sound like Keypurr's position, that Jesus was possessed by another spirit.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again john w,

You made that up. Slower, condescending Christ rejector-you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed, as I only engage bible believers.
Get saved.

Yes, I was reticent to reply to you due to your abusive type of comments that I encountered in our previous interaction, but I considered the subject more important than having to deal with your behaviour. It is sad when we are introduced to the theme of the image and likeness of God, that you do not seem to see the need to respond in the likeness of the character of God. You claim to be saved, and suggest that I am not saved, but your example does not commend your position and opens it up to doubt whether you are truly saved. It is your choice if you want to disqualify yourself from this Bible discussion, as on both occasions you do not seem to be able to answer from the Scriptures, but only resort to abuse.

The following is possibly the climax of the theme of the likeness of God, and we do well to seek to purify ourselves:
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV): 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[john w]

Greetings again john w, Yes, I was reticent to reply to you due to your abusive type of comments that I encountered in our previous interaction, but I considered the subject more important than having to deal with your behaviour. It is sad when we are introduced to the theme of the image and likeness of God, that you do not seem to see the need to respond in the likeness of the character of God. You claim to be saved, and suggest that I am not saved, but your example does not commend your position and opens it up to doubt whether you are truly saved. It is your choice if you want to disqualify yourself from this Bible discussion, as on both occasions you do not seem to be able to answer from the Scriptures, but only resort to abuse.

The following is possibly the climax of the theme of the likeness of God, and we do well to seek to purify ourselves:
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV): 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Kind regards
Trevor

Even slower, wolfie, condescending Christ rejector-you are a bible corrector/agnostic/mystic, not a bible believer; thus, you are dismissed, as I only engage bible believers.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

The question isn't obscure at all. Is there any form of identification you would accept that the being before you is actually God, and not some other angel or human that is holding his ID badge?

As there is only One God the Father, and he dwells in heaven, and no mortal man can see God, as he dwells in light unapproachable by man, whom man has not seen or can see, then the answer to your question is obvious and I cannot understand why you should ask.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

Where does Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 (the two above verses) show that Jesus needed to be divine or God for his death to be meaningful. Again, stop just posting verse and chapter and explain your claims.

Animals and people die left and right all the time. It might even be true that "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints" (Psalm 116:15) but we humans can not lay down his lives for another's sin. This should be intuitive, but it is also established in scripture as well.

Exodus 32:32-33 KJV
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 49:7-9 KJV
(7) None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
(8) (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever; )
(9) That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

Ezekiel 14:14 KJV
(14) Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

So why does the Passover need to be divine (God) for it to be meaningful? As we say above, someone cannot substitute themselves (like Moses) or their own righteousness (like Noah, Daniel, or Job) for another. A man cannot redeem his brother unto eternal life (Psalm 49). The blood of animals never took away sins.


Hebrews 10:4-5 KJV
(4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
(5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Mark 2:7 KJV
(7) Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Luke 5:20-21 KJV
(20) And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
(21) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

All of this adds together that the Christ's words ARE God's words (to forgive sin) and that His sacrifice is God's sacrifice, forgiving the sin and absorbing the damage of the transgression to himself. Man cannot redeem man, this was already established in scripture.

 

[Rosenritter]

Of course it does. It teaches PLAINLY that angels look like men, even calling them "men", and remarking that we can entertain angels unaware, so they are NOT distinguishable from humans.

I agree, they are NOT of our creation, they were there when God created men, and participated as an amazed audience.

Job 38:1-7 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

If you stopped to define what "in the image of God" implies then it might help resolve the question.

 

[Rosenritter]

I would also like to add the OT and NT usage of "Elohiym/God" regarding the Kings of Israel, a SPECIFIC category of "Judge", found in Psa 45, and referenced in Heb 1:8,9.
The CLARIFICATION there is found in the phrase "...therefore God, EVEN THY GOD..." an obvious, and distinct order of worship!

No, not an obvious order or worship, it also works as a prophecy relating forwards to the gospels, that he would walk among us rather than thundering outwards like at Sinai.