John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

[keypurr]

Col 1:14-17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: (1:15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (1:16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (1:17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ​

You are either dumb or a liar.

You don't read deep do you RD. You have not been given the ability to see all that is in scripture. Jesus was a man, a sinless man who died for your sins. However the Christ in him is a spirit. You have been told this before. This Christ spirit isGod's firstborn. First of all creation, for all was created through him. How long will you remain in darkness?

You have so much to learn, better get started now.


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[Right Divider]

You don't read deep do you RD. You have not been given the ability to see all that is in scripture. Jesus was a man, a sinless man who died for your sins. However the Christ in him is a spirit. You have been told this before. This Christ spirit isGod's firstborn. First of all creation, for all was created through him. How long will you remain in darkness?

You have so much to learn, better get started now.

You're a sorely confused old man keypurr.

Bible says that the SAME HIM that shed His blood for our redemption was the one that CREATED ALL THINGS.

How long will you remain in darkness?

 

[freelight]

More on Phillipians 2:5-7

More on Phillipians 2:5-7

You did not even quote one Greek expert who confirms you "expanded" definition of the Greek word morphe.

I shared my knowledge by memory of reading many different scholars definitions of such, which goes to prove 'morphe' in the scriptures most always refers to some 'form', 'appearance', or 'mode', always something visible. Even the verbal form of 'morph' means to change form,...so is a visible 'mode' of being. We can use the illustration of different uniforms upon a person, which indicate their rank, office, vocation (status)....we can tell by that 'uniform' who they are, what their 'work' is, who/what they represent. This is one extension of the meaning we can relate to the passage as Jesus was BOTH in the 'morphe' of God and took on the 'morphe' of a servant as well. His divine form includes his divine office, status, vocation and ministry, while his human servant form serves in the capacity of attending human needs and nurturing.

The Unitarians,who agree with your view that the Lord Jesus is not God, say the following:

"The Gospel of Mark has a short reference to the well-known story in Luke 24:13-33 about Jesus appearing to the two men on the road to Emmaus. Mark tells us that Jesus appeared 'in a different form (morphe)' to these two men so that they did not recognize him (16:12). This is very clear. Jesus did not have a different 'essential nature' when he appeared to the two disciples. He simply had a different outward appearance" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

I've done an adequate amount of research to what I'm relating at this point in time on the subject, and continue to keep learning. Yes, notice above,....the emphasis of 'morphe' is an outward form or appearance. It may not refer to an inner essence or indicating a kind of 'nature', although some scholars have admitted that it could, which in turn affects the mode or 'form' in which a being is appearing. As I noted earlier, the NIV tanslates 'form' as 'nature'. (Some other translations translate 'morphe' as 'nature' as well - GNT, PHILLIPS, NIRV)

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

-NIV

'Form' would appear to be a more correct translation. Here is a pdf on more definitions of 'morphe'. While some do include 'nature' or 'essence' with the definition of 'morphe',...

Trench commenting on the word’s usage in our passage, writes, “The form of God is not His
divine nature, although He who exists in the form of God is God. This is true because morphe
signifies the form as it expresses the inner life-not ‘being’ but ‘mode of being,’ or better ‘mode of
existence,’ and only God could have the mode of existence of God” (Synonyms of the New
Testament, page 276).

I'm assuming Trench is a Trinitarian, but what he indicates is important, as to distinguish the 'form' of 'God' from 'God' himself, as a 'form' is a 'mode' of God or representative expression of himself. The Son is the express image of the Father, being the logos, the creative word, the agency thru which God creates, shapes and forms the worlds. The incorporeal takes on a corporeal form expressing a mode of being, a particular activity or vocation. So 'morphe' can include the inner nature or substance of a person or thing as the outward appearance may be an expression of a particular quality or character of such. We have a versatility of comprehension tenses available here. This plays even more wondrously in our contemplation of the 'hypostatic union'.

If you will take the time to read those verses cited you will see that it cannot be denied that the word 'morphe' means "the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Thank you, It should already be obvious that my definition of 'morphe' agrees with Thayer's and includes the total spectrum of the meaning of the word in its descriptive inventory (I've just added that 'morphe' while directly indicating an outward appearance, can also include the inward qualities and character inherent in the form under inspection. Here, 'substance' and 'form' may be related; context of the passage is to be considered here). I'll repost these 3 links again from last post as I highly recommend them - A few excellent resource-studies on this chapter are here, here & here.

If you want to examine an expanded definition of the word then Vine says that the word:

"denotes 'the special or characteristic form or feature' of a person or thing; it is used with particular significance in the NT, only of Christ, in Phl 2:6, 7, in the phrases "being in the form of God," and "taking the form of a servant." An excellent definition of the word is that of Gifford: 'morphe is therefore properly the nature or essence, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual, and retained as long as the individual itself exists.... Thus in the passage before us 'morphe Theou' is the Divine nature actually and inseparably subsisting in the Person of Christ...The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).​

You will notice that Vine's 'definition' of 'morphe' agrees with Thayers in your quote above, BUT then quotes Gifford saying it denotes 'nature' or 'essence' which other scholars do not wholly agree with, particularly in the passage we're discussing. We would also remember that the only other place 'morphe' is located in the NT is Mark 16:12 -

After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.

Emphasis is 'appearance', not necessarily nature or inner essence, although one could argue Jesus resurrection 'form' had a different quality or spiritual 'nature' about it. 'Morphe' includes all the features and qualities that a given 'form' might appear to be expressing at any given moment.

No, that is not right because Paul said that He changed His form from that of being in thre form of God to being in the form of a servant:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:6-7).​

So you admit a change of some kind in the 'form' of 'God' in the person of Jesus the Christ? - a 'trans-formation' of some kind. Lest we dive into the intricate metaphysics involved in the Christological controversies in the 4th & 5th centuries, we'll leave this on the backburner for now. Its most fascinating, since in the larger cosmological picture to me, the person of the Lord Jesus Christ represents something even more than what a traditional-orthodox Christology encompasses, although its definitions thereof give plenty of ground for further elaboration. While the nature and transformation of the man Jesus includes something special and unique in his own given office,...it also represents the transformation of all men into the divine image and likeness, so Jesus is the prototype, herald, divine pattern, exemplar, firstborn expression of what man may attain to. And we do so while being 'in Christ' by faith and the power of the Spirit.

As to the passages in Revelation, and Jesus speaking of being with 'God' or coming down from heaven (mostly in gospel of John), I'll address those later with further study :thumb:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As to the passages in Revelation, and Jesus speaking of being with 'God' or coming down from heaven (mostly in gospel of John), I'll address those later with further study :thumb:

I would like to discuss what is said here in "bold":

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

Is not the "Lord" spoken of in verse eight the Lord Jesus?

After all, from the context can we not conclude that the words "which is to come" are referring to this coming?:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."​

Besides that, verse eight is clearly a testimony from someone, and that someone can only be the Lord Jesus:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw" (Rev.1:1-2).​

I cannot see that Revelation 1:8 can be speaking of anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ. That being true, then we can conclude that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty God.

 

[jamie]

However when you do the two-step translator shuffle into most English renderings it ends up sounding like the Father has a form, or a shape, despite the fact that such thinking is clearly denounced in the Torah concerning the Father, (YHWH Elohim).

Now, my God, I pray, let Your eyes be open and let Your ears be attentive to the prayer made in this place. (2 Chronicles 6:40)​

Does the Most High have eyes and ears?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God doesn't have an outward appearance, he is spirit.

Colossians 1

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

The LORD is invisible to men in these earthly bodies. But when we put on our heavenly bodies then we will be able to see Him:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, notice above,....the emphasis of 'morphe' is an outward form or appearance. It may not refer to an inner essence or indicating a kind of 'nature', although some scholars have admitted that it could, which in turn affects the mode or 'form' in which a being is appearing.

What do you think about what we read in Vine's here:

"The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).​

Since the Lord Jesus was a Servant in every sense then that means that He is also God in every sense.

Or perhaps you are willing to argue that the Greek word translated "form" carries a different meaning in the two instances where it is used at Phillipians 2:6-7?

 

[daqq]

Now, my God, I pray, let Your eyes be open and let Your ears be attentive to the prayer made in this place. (2 Chronicles 6:40)​

Does the Most High have eyes and ears?

Of course but what do those things mean? Seven Eyes upon one Stone, Seven Spirits before His throne, Seven holy Watchers which are Elohim-Angels: they are the Seven Eyes of YHWH sent forth into all His habitable Land; and the Eyes of YHWH are always upon his Land, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year: and you are the Land, (Gen 6:8, Deut 11:12, Zec 3:9, Zec 4:10, Rev 5:6).

 

[jamie]

Of course but what do those things mean? Seven Eyes upon one Stone, Seven Spirits before His throne, Seven holy Watchers which are Elohim-Angels: they are the Seven Eyes of YHWH sent forth into all His habitable Land; and the Eyes of YHWH are always upon his Land, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year: and you are the Land, (Gen 6:8, Deut 11:12, Zec 3:9, Zec 4:10, Rev 5:6).

Does he also have seven ears? Eyes and ears usually come in pairs. I wonder how many hands and arms he has.

 

[daqq]

Does he also have seven ears? Eyes and ears usually come in pairs. I wonder how many hands and arms he has.

Does it work in the kingdom of Elohim the way you presume it does? Are you actually hearing my voice right now with your ears? or are you trying to hear what I write with your ears? If you cannot hear my voice right now while you read my words then you must be trying to hear with your eyes, eh? Is it not true? And what are the very first words of the first and greatest commandment? Are they not, "HEAR, O YISRAEL"??? (Mark 12:29 quoting Deut 6:4).

He that has two ears, let him buy a sword; he that has an ear, let him hear. :chuckle:

 

[jamie]

He that has two ears, let him buy a sword; he that has an ear, let him hear. :chuckle:

Is that what Malchus said? :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

Is that what Malchus said? :chuckle:

Miykael ha-Tzaddik says the risen Savior gave the linen cloth to the servant of the Kohen. :chuckle: :chuckle:

 

[marhig]

The LORD is invisible to men in these earthly bodies. But when we put on our heavenly bodies then we will be able to see Him:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

He's not invisible to those in the flesh either to those that he has revealed himself to, they have the eyes to see as the ears to hear. But you don't see God with your natural eyes and your natural ears. We hear him with our inner ear, in our hearts through the inner man. For example, I hear many speak but I don't always hear Gods voice in them.

But my point isn't what a spirit looks like, I'm sure that God can manifest himself and his people in whichever way he chooses, but It's that no flesh is in heaven, I know that Gods spirit is within us and I know that that spirit isn't flesh.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, no man has seen the Father except the son of man that came down from above. Why was there a body prepared for the son that was in heaven? Heb 10. Jesus was a man, he did not create the Universe for his Father.


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The body was not prepared for a son from Heaven.

The body was/is the son.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The fact that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty God is confirmed by His own testimony here in "bold":

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

You do not confess the son, and therefore deny the record God has given of His son.

Therefore you do not have the Father either.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

When you acknowledge that God Almighty is united WITH/IN His Son then you might discern correctly.

LA

 

[daqq]

You do not confess the son, and therefore deny the record God has given of His son.

Therefore you do not have the Father either.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

When you acknowledge that God Almighty is united WITH/IN His Son then you might discern correctly.

LA

Discern? He does not even discern the "Amen", (break), in the midst of his quote you quoted.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

The Lord Jesus was a servant all the time He was walking the earth because all that time He was doing the will of the Father, as He said here:

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" (Jn.6:38).​

That is a perfect description of a Servant.
What definition of the Greek word translated "form" are you willing to give?

The following is one view of Morphe (S#3444)
58.2 μορφήa, ῆς f: the nature or character of something, with emphasis upon both the internal and external form—‘nature, character.’ ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων ‘he always had the very nature of God’ Php 2:6; μορφὴν δούλου λαβών ‘he took on the nature of a servant’ Php 2:7. In view of the lack of a closely corresponding lexical item such as ‘nature,’ it may be necessary to restructure the form of Php 2:7 as ‘he became truly a servant.’ (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament – Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida).

What do you think about what we read in Vine's here:

"The true meaning of morphe in the expression 'form of God' is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, 'form of a servant.' It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical, and that 'form' must therefore have the same sense in both" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).​

Since the Lord Jesus was a Servant in every sense then that means that He is also God in every sense.
Or perhaps you are willing to argue that the Greek word translated "form" carries a different meaning in the two instances where it is used at Phillipians 2:6-7?

I personally would move more towards the concept of character, and the use of the word “nature” is ambiguous. If you use nature to prove that it is speaking of the second person of the Trinity, and the whole concept of the incarnation, then your suggestion that we must use the same sense in both instances fails, as a servant does not have a unique nature, as servants and masters or rulers have the same nature. I still hold to the concept that this is speaking of the disposition of mind and action of Jesus as a man in both instances, after his birth. It is not talking about the incarnation, as his birth is defined by Luke 1:35, not by your assessment of this passage and others.

What was He before He descended from heaven?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

"What and if ye shall see the son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me" (Jn.6:38).​

God the Father came down from heaven in and through His Son. You take some verses literally, while you ignore the verses that are literal such as Luke 1:35.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Discern? He does not even discern the "Amen", (break), in the midst of his quote you quoted.

True, we agree on that.

LA

 

[marhig]

You do not confess the son, and therefore deny the record God has given of His son.

Therefore you do not have the Father either.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

When you acknowledge that God Almighty is united WITH/IN His Son then you might discern correctly.

LA

Yes LA, and it says that we are to confess that Jesus is the son of God to receive life, not that Jesus is God.

Also I read this the other night

Mark 12

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Not three in one, but one.

Our God is the only true God, and he sent Jesus Christ who is the son of God as it says in the Bible. And as Jesus himself also taught!

 

[daqq]

Yes LA, and it says that we are to confess that Jesus is the son of God to receive life, not that Jesus is God.

Also I read this the other night

Mark 12

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Not three in one, but one.

Our God is the only true God, and he sent Jesus Christ who is the son of God as it says in the Bible. And as Jesus himself also taught!

The way in which the scribe answers also shows that your understanding is correct, (and that Yeshua affirms the answer from the scribe), but it has been gone over so many times I'm sure everyone has already heard it somewhere before if not already in this thread, (???). Yet there are other similar statements such as the following:

Matthew 4:10 KJV (cf. Luke 4:8)
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, [κυριον τον θεον (Deut 6:13 LXX) - YHWH Elohim (Deut 6:13 Hebrew Text)] and him only shalt thou serve [G3000 λατρεύω].

This form of "service" is a religious form of "homage" and devotion, by way of actions and deeds, which makes it truly the more supreme manner of what is true "worship" of the Father:

G3000 λατρεύω latreuo (la-trev'-ō) v.
to minister (to God), i.e. render religious homage.
[from latris “a hired menial”]
KJV: serve, do the service, worship(-per)