Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[drbrumley]

vs

1 Corinthians 15

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

All true.....just keep on proving my point....

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

All true.....just keep on proving my point....

Not a problem.lain:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Why is there only ONE sitting in the "Throne of God and of the Lamb"?

I bet you cannot figure that out.

you are lying about the scriptures.

LA

 

[meshak]

Why is there only ONE sitting in the "Throne of God and of the Lamb"?

I bet you cannot figure that out.

I cannot believe you are asking this.

There are two seats, God is the center and Jesus is right hand side.

 

[drbrumley]

Oh, almost forgot....

Isaiah 43:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*
I, I am Yahweh,
and there is no other Savior but Me.

vs.

Titus 2:13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13*while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[freelight]

Lets look at the truth contextually speaking.....again.......

Lets look at the truth contextually speaking.....again.......

Why is there only ONE sitting in the "Throne of God and of the Lamb"?

I bet you cannot figure that out.

Does it need figuring? - yes....'God' who is infinite Spirit, operates thru and within 'figures', 'shapes', 'forms'.


The truth I shared stands,...'God' the Father of all is NOT a 'lamb'. It was a metaphysical proposition for you to consider, since 'God' is incorporeal, but manifests, expresses, or reveals himself thru different forms and personalities, in this case, the 'Lamb' is of 'God' of course, and the agent of 'God'. We would also NOTE that in almost every instance the Lamb is always a distinct entity from 'God', even though they BOTH share the same THRONE (Authority/Power-Seat) of the Father. (remember the Son conquered and inherited his Father's throne).

The Father and the Son are ONE VOICE....One 'Elohim'. We've been over this in former disserations. The passages in Revelation always show the Lord God Almighty AND the Lamb, as being distinct entities, although of course they are 'One God'. 'God' remains forever echad. The 'Lamb' is his special office, role, function is 'elohim' and is but another type or figure of the Messiah, God's Son, the saving, redeeming, ruling, figure....in God's SERVICE. Since the Lamb represents 'God', and is his AGENT,...the Lamb is 'elohim'....and inherits and takes on the NAME of his 'God'. - so God and his Servant-SON both bear the signet name or titles, being 'Alpha & Omega', 'Beginning and End', 'First and Last'.

There is no problem in understanding these in a Unitarian context. None whatsoever.

 

[daqq]

The Lamb of the Apocalypse is always Arnion.
It has been explained, O ye arnia, (John 21:15) . . .

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Oh, almost forgot....

Isaiah 43:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*
I, I am Yahweh,
and there is no other Savior but Me.

vs.

Titus 2:13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13*while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

So you say God has no son and His son is not a man.

LA

 

[drbrumley]

So you say God has no son and His son is not a man.

LA

Is Isaiah 43:11 true or not?

Is Titus 2:13 true or not?

 

[freelight]

Is Isaiah 43:11 true or not?

Is Titus 2:13 true or not?

'God' is Sole Savior,...there is no other Savior.. 'God' uses his anointed AGENT in his work of salvation, the Savior-Messiah, who represents 'God'. Not a problem at all, within a Unitarian context. No need to try to make Jesus fit into an orthodox definition of a Trinity here.

 

[drbrumley]

'God' is Sole Savior,...there is no other Savior.. 'God' uses his anointed AGENT in his work of salvation, the Savior-Messiah, who represents 'God'. Not a problem at all, within a Unitarian context. No need to try to make Jesus fit into an orthodox definition of a Trinity here.

Ah, but that is not what it says now is it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We would also NOTE that in almost every instance the Lamb is always a distinct entity from 'God', even though they BOTH share the same THRONE (Authority/Power-Seat) of the Father. (remember the Son conquered and inherited his Father's throne).

If two distinct entities share the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" then why is there only ONE on the throne and that ONE is God?:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

 

[KingdomRose]

Yes, He is the express image of God Almighty. Let us look at this passage which speaks of the Lord Jesus::

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when His servants will see the One sitting in "the throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see the form of the Lord Jesus and at the same time they will be seeing the form of God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God.

Therefore, you are right when you say that the Lord Jesus is the express image of God Almighty.

You have been shown that your version of Philippians 2:6 is not a relevant version, as MANY MODERN VERSIONS render that verse as : "Although he was like God in nature, he never even considered seizing the chance to be equal with God." (21st Century New Testament)

Being in the form of God simply means that Jesus is SPIRIT, just as God is Spirit (John 4:24). Nothing more than that. Everything else you say is your speculation and imagination.

 

[KingdomRose]

The Ancient of Days will be on the earth:

"Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee" (Jer.19:1-2).​

The following scene is a prophecy concerning the return of the Lord Jesus to the earth to rule in His kingdom:

"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed" (Dan.7:13).​

At Matthew 25:31 the Lord Jesus says that when He comes to the earth then He will sit upon His throne. And the following verse shows Him reigning as King in His earthly Kingdom:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).
​

That verse is describing the same Kingdom spoken of here:

"And the LORD (JWHW) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one" (Zech.14:9).​

And the LORD's one name is:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).​

The Ancient of Days, JEHOVAH, will never be on the earth, as Solomon indicated millennia ago (I Kings 8:27). And when Jesus finishes his work as the King over the Earth, "he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet....When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

Explain that, Jerry. I won't hold my breath....you usually don't answer me.

 

[Nihilo]

Really, they teach you that "Jesus is YHWH" now? How things have changed; they know not that the Father is YHWH anymore? What a sad state of affairs, but I suppose that is what happens when you ignore Torah and Prophets and reject the Testimony of Yeshua concerning himself and his and our Father. When you take the Name of the Father and give it to Yeshua you can no longer even find a name for the Father in the Primary Covenant anymore because you have taken it away from the Father and given it to someone else. The reality is that when your version of Jesus prays to his Father, his Father now has no name: you literally have it as if "YHWH is praying to His Father". That is not partial blindness but rather willingly accepting strong delusion.

Show me a single New Testament text that proves your contention that YHWH is only the Father? Also, what is "the Greek" for "the Lord" in John 21:7 (KJV) and in Mark 12:29-30 (KJV) or Matthew 22:37 (KJV)?

 

[daqq]

If two distinct entities share the "Throne of God and of the Lamb" then why is there only ONE on the throne and that ONE is God?:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

That is along the same lines as the faulty John 10:30 argument:

Revelation 3:21 ASV
21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

By default you are making yourself out to be equal to the Almighty, (if and when you overcome), at the same time you argue what you posted above. That is the giant problem with making the one who was not ashamed to call us brethren into Elohim Almighty. Those who overcome will sit with Yeshua in his throne, just as he sat down with his Father in His throne. If your argument is true, and your reasoning makes Yeshua equal to Elohim Almighty, then it also makes those who overcome equal to Yeshua and equal to Elohim Almighty. Yeshua was not ashamed to call us brethren according to the scripture: you are not the brother of our heavenly Father.

 

[KingdomRose]

Oh, almost forgot....

Isaiah 43:11 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11*
I, I am Yahweh,
and there is no other Savior but Me.

vs.

Titus 2:13 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
13*while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Your smugness in the face of overwhelming refutation to your erroneous ideas is astounding and would be almost amusing if it weren't so pathetic. I would take Holman's Christian Standard Bible off my shelf if I were you. He's got Titus 2:13 as saying something misleading. Many Bible committees have seen that this verse includes TWO Persons---God AND our Savior, Jesus Christ. When you move the comma somewhere else, you get an entirely different meaning, and there were NO COMMAS IN GREEK. So Titus 2:13 really says: "while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God AND Savior Jesus Christ."

To call Jesus the Savior doesn't mean that he is the same as God (Jehovah). Jesus is THE MEANS BY WHICH Jehovah saves, therefore, BOTH can hold the title of "Savior," though Jehovah is the SOURCE of salvation because it is He who sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world.

So if you bothered to read this, you can see where your error lies.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That is along the same lines as the faulty John 10:30 argument:

Revelation 3:21 ASV
21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

By default you are making yourself out to be equal to the Almighty, (if and when you overcome), at the same time you argue what you posted above. That is the giant problem with making the one who was not ashamed to call us brethren into Elohim Almighty. Those who overcome will sit with Yeshua in his throne, just as he sat down with his Father in His throne. If your argument is true, and your reasoning makes Yeshua equal to Elohim Almighty, then it also makes those who overcome equal to Yeshua and equal to Elohim Almighty. Yeshua was not ashamed to call us brethren according to the scripture: you are not the brother of our heavenly Father.

Jesus' God is God.:salute:

 

[daqq]

Show me a single New Testament text that proves your contention that YHWH is only the Father? Also, what is "the Greek" for "the Lord" in John 21:7 (KJV) and in Mark 12:29-30 (KJV) or Matthew 22:37 (KJV)?

The KJV reads from the Textus Receptus but the W/H is the same in these instances as far as concerning what you ask:

John 21:7 W/H
7 λεγει ουν ο μαθητης εκεινος ον ηγαπα ο ιησους τω πετρω ο κυριος εστιν σιμων ουν πετρος ακουσας οτι ο κυριος εστιν τον επενδυτην διεζωσατο ην γαρ γυμνος και εβαλεν εαυτον εις την θαλασσαν

ο κυριος (with the article) = "the Master"

Mark 12:29-30 W/H
29 απεκριθη ο ιησους οτι πρωτη εστιν ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
30 και αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εξ ολης της καρδιας σου και εξ ολης της ψυχης σου και εξ ολης της διανοιας σου και εξ ολης της ισχυος σου

κυριος (without the article) = YHWH
κυριος ο θεος ημων = YHWH our Elohim
κυριον τον θεον σου = YHWH your Elohim

Matthew 22:37 W/H
37 ο δε εφη αυτω αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εν ολη [τη] καρδια σου και εν ολη τη ψυχη σου και εν ολη τη διανοια σου

κυριον τον θεον σου = YHWH your Elohim

Throughout the Gospel accounts we find this to be the case, that whenever the Tetragrammaton is intended the replacement word Kurios and its forms do not have the article because the authors of the Gospel accounts are following the precedent laid out for them in the Septuagint which they most often quote. This practice was carried over from the Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint because Hebrew does not tolerate an article with proper nouns, (names). Thus most of the time when you read and-or compare the Septuagint with the Hebrew text you will find that wherever the Tetragrammaton has been replaced with Kurios and its forms there is no article attached. This practice begins immediately in the very first chapter of Matthew where it is clear that the Malak-Angelos which appears to Yosef is a/the Malak of YHWH:

Matthew 1:20 W/H
20 ταυτα δε αυτου ενθυμηθεντος ιδου αγγελος κυριου κατ οναρ εφανη αυτω λεγων ιωσηφ υιος δαυιδ μη φοβηθης παραλαβειν μαριαν την γυναικα σου το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ πνευματος εστιν αγιου

αγγελος κυριου (anarthrous / no article) = [an] Angel of YHWH.

Then, in the next passage which makes mention of the angel again, we read "the angel" with the article; but Kurios is still written without an article because it is the replacement word for the Tetragrammaton and the Name of the Father:

Matthew 1:24 W/H
24 εγερθεις δε [ο] ιωσηφ απο του υπνου εποιησεν ως προσεταξεν αυτω ο αγγελος κυριου και παρελαβεν την γυναικα αυτου

ο αγγελος κυριου = the Angel of YHWH

What this means is that whenever you see an article with Kurios in the Gospel accounts, (i.e. "ο κυριος" and the other case forms included), it is "the Master" and not the replacement word for the Tetragrammaton, (YHWH), and is not being intended to be read as the Name of the Father. When you see it without an article it is most of the time the replacement word for the Name of the Father because of how the same practice was first laid out in the Septuagint. The Shema passages you quoted from Matthew and Mark are right there in both the Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint showing that what I have said is true.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Ancient of Days, JEHOVAH, will never be on the earth, as Solomon indicated millennia ago (I Kings 8:27).

1 Kings 8:27 is speaking about the omnipresent God. The Lord Jesus was in the form of God until He put ona flesh and blood body. When the following prophecy will be fulfilled His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD (JHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:1-4).​