Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[RBBI]

Yes, He is the express image of God Almighty. Let us look at this passage which speaks of the Lord Jesus::

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when His servants will see the One sitting in "the throne of God and of the Lamb" they will see the form of the Lord Jesus and at the same time they will be seeing the form of God:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God.

Therefore, you are right when you say that the Lord Jesus is the express image of God Almighty.

Put that backwards, and it's saying (according to error) that G-d is in the outward physical form of a man, if the outward physical form of Yeshua is what is meant here. Obviously, it's not. So error here is in ASSUMING that a physical form is meant, but what is actually meant by the outward form of G-d in this case, is the SPIRIT SEED, because G-d was IN CHRIST (Spirit Seed) reconciling all men unto Himself.

Indeed this is why, He said, when you've seen ME (the Spirit Seed) you've seen the Father, because the Father IS Spirit, and according to the law of the seed, every seed must bear fruit after it's own kind. His own kind is the Father, which is Spirit, therefore the Son of G-d is SPIRIT. And this is why we were told that this revelation which can only come from the Father is the foundation of His many-membered body/temple being built. And in this sense He, the Spirit Seed, is equal to, or the same as the Father, in NATURE, not identity.

 

[daqq]

Nah. I believe what the bishops, and all of them in communion with the successor of Peter, teach. The magisterium is the Lord's own personal choice as to how His Church shall be instructed in the One Christian faith (Ephesians 4:5 KJV).

Really, they teach you that "Jesus is YHWH" now? How things have changed; they know not that the Father is YHWH anymore? What a sad state of affairs, but I suppose that is what happens when you ignore Torah and Prophets and reject the Testimony of Yeshua concerning himself and his and our Father. When you take the Name of the Father and give it to Yeshua you can no longer even find a name for the Father in the Primary Covenant anymore because you have taken it away from the Father and given it to someone else. The reality is that when your version of Jesus prays to his Father, his Father now has no name: you literally have it as if "YHWH is praying to His Father". That is not partial blindness but rather willingly accepting strong delusion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Put that backwards, and it's saying (according to error) that G-d is in the outward physical form of a man, if the outward physical form of Yeshua is what is meant here.

This passage is speaking of the Lord Jesus as he now exists in heaven:

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb.1:3).​

The Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom and in that kingdom He is no longer in a flesh and blood body (1 Cor.15:50). while in the heavenly kingdom He is described this way:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:16-17).​

While in heaven He is described this way:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" (Col.1:14:15).​

He is described as being "invisible" because in these earthly bodies we are not equipped to see bodies which are described as "spiritual bodies." But in the future those with Spiritual bodies will be able to see the ONE who is sitting in the "throne of God and of the Lamb":

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God. Besides that, since there is only ONE sitting in the "throne of God and the Lamb" then common sense dictates that the Lamb is God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When you take the Name of the Father and give it to Yeshua you can no longer even find a name for the Father in the Primary Covenant anymore because you have taken it away from the Father and given it to someone else.

No, they are one and the same. This verse is speaking about the Lord Jesus:

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).​

That is exactly what JHWH did:

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD (JHWH), which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech.12:1).​

The Lord Jesus brought into existence all "created" things (Col.1:16-17) so it is obvious that He was not created. Or are you willing to argue that He created Himself? LOL!

 

[RBBI]

Are you willing to argue that He prays to Himself? Seems so.

 

[daqq]

No, they are one and the same. This verse is speaking about the Lord Jesus:

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).​

That is exactly what JHWH did:

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD (JHWH), which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech.12:1).​

The Lord Jesus brought into existence all "created" things (Col.1:16-17) so it is obvious that He was not created. Or are you willing to argue that He created Himself? LOL!

You are arguing that the Father is His own Son, and the Son is his own Father, which is completely unnatural in all of the visible creation of Elohim. Your logic is the antithesis of logic, it is anti-logic, because it even completely ignores the very meanings of the words "father" and "son". A son, by the very definition of the word, cannot be his own father; and a father, by the very definition of the word, cannot be his own son. Your theology is the result of a total breakdown of logic and reason, and is shown to be even worse off than Trinitarianism, which also cannot be explained to the point that the "church fathers" were finally forced to confess that their theory was a "mystery" which cannot be adequately expounded; and your theory is yet another more twisted version of their mystery theory which you have mixed with some Modalism and the Oneness doctrine. The only way you may convince any others of such an unrealistic fantasy doctrine is by finding those who are likewise willing to turn off logic and reason and intentionally blind themselves to basic truths clearly seen in creation; even the creation of human beings ourselves, for you yourself have a son, and you plainly know that you are not him and he is not you, (Rom 1:18-23a).

Romans 1:18-23a KJV
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23a And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are arguing that the Father is His own Son, and the Son is his own Father, which is completely unnatural in all of the visible creation of Elohim.

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of..." when speaking to a sorcerer named Elymas:

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10).​

Of course Paul was not saying that Elymas was a literal son of the devil. Instead, he was saying that the "nature" of Elymas is that of the devil. So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said that His nature is that of man. And when it is said that He is the "son of God" what is being said is that His very nature is that of God.

Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus. The say:

"He did not 'toot his own horn,' but instead called himself 'the son of man,' which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant 'a man'" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

Since in the Aramaic language the term "son of man" means "man" then we can understand that in the same language the term "son of God" means "God."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you willing to argue that He prays to Himself? Seems so.

Here we see a plurality in the Godhead:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image" (Gen1:26,27).​

Here God is spoken of as being a plurality. This is a case of a "compound unity," a concept which is spoken of here:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

This concept is above the reasoning of our finite minds and that is why Paul calls it a "mystery." Nevertheless, the concept of "compound unity" is found in the Bible and that same concept applies to the Godhead.

The Bible reveals that there is One God in three Divine Persons. That is why we read of the "name" (singular) of God here:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).​

 

[daqq]

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of..." when speaking to a sorcerer named Elymas:

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10).​

Of course Paul was not saying that Elymas was a literal son of the devil. Instead, he was saying that the "nature" of Elymas is that of the devil. So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said that His nature is that of man. And when it is said that He is the "son of God" what is being said is that His very nature is that of God.

Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus. The say:

"He did not 'toot his own horn,' but instead called himself 'the son of man,' which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant 'a man'" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

Since in the Aramaic language the term "son of man" means "man" then we can understand that in the same language the term "son of God" means "God."

Wrong again, "son of the devil" means that he learned his doctrine from his "father the devil" who is the "father of lies", (and thus they are not the same "person" or persona). Like I said, total breakdown in normative reasoning and logic. For the same reason you are not capable of understanding the parables of Yeshua.

 

[daqq]

So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said that His nature is that of man.
*SNIP*
Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus.

Let us now look at how Jerry Shugart calls YHWH "the Son of Man" . . . :chuckle:
Let us also remember how "the Son of Man" is actually "the Son of Adam" . . . :rotfl:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Here we see a plurality in the Godhead:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image" (Gen1:26,27).​

Here God is spoken of as being a plurality. This is a case of a "compound unity," a concept which is spoken of here:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

This concept is above the reasoning of our finite minds and that is why Paul calls it a "mystery." Nevertheless, the concept of "compound unity" is found in the Bible and that same concept applies to the Godhead.

Godhead.... :hammer:

http://www.simplebibletruths.net/Godhead.htm

 

[daqq]

Godhead.... :hammer:

http://www.simplebibletruths.net/Godhead.htm

What a great link! Thanks!

 

[daqq]

Let us now look at how Jerry Shugart calls YHWH "the Son of Man" . . . :chuckle:
Let us also remember how "the Son of Man" is actually "the Son of Adam" . . . :rotfl:

Let us also note that Jerry Shugart therefore proudly proclaims that YHWH is the Son of Adam.
Let us also look at how Jerry Shugart directly contradicts Genesis 2:7 and the following:

Luke 3:38 ASV
38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Let us realize that Jerry Shugart has turned off his brain . . .

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

The Bible reveals that there is One God in three Divine Persons. That is why we read of the "name" (singular) of God here:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt.28:19).​

Back to school with you.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/08/05/trinity-investigating-the-authenticity-of-matthew-2819/

 

[daqq]

Back to school with you.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/08/05/trinity-investigating-the-authenticity-of-matthew-2819/

Dang, you've been doing your own homework, and a lot of it! I see it appears we have the same Rabbi . . .

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Let us also note that Jerry Shugart therefore proudly proclaims that YHWH is the Son of Adam.
Let us also look at how Jerry Shugart directly contradicts Genesis 2:7 and the following:

Luke 3:38 ASV
38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Let us realize that Jerry Shugart has turned off his brain . . .

It's definitely fogged up.

Maybe some ex-lax would help?

 

[RBBI]

This passage is speaking of the Lord Jesus as he now exists in heaven:

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb.1:3).​

The Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom and in that kingdom He is no longer in a flesh and blood body (1 Cor.15:50). while in the heavenly kingdom He is described this way:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:16-17).​

While in heaven He is described this way:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" (Col.1:14:15).​

He is described as being "invisible" because in these earthly bodies we are not equipped to see bodies which are described as "spiritual bodies." But in the future those with Spiritual bodies will be able to see the ONE who is sitting in the "throne of God and of the Lamb":

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

When His servants look at the Lamb they will see the external appearance of God. And it is impossible that anyone could see the Lamb that way unless He is in fact God. Besides that, since there is only ONE sitting in the "throne of God and the Lamb" then common sense dictates that the Lamb is God.

I notice you didn't really address any of my points, but just parroted the same refrain again. This is starting to look like a pattern with you. I know it's a hard thing to find out you've been lied to by your denomination and those you have considered "church fathers", but you need to direct your angst towards wanting to know the TRUTH, not trying to hold together their house of straw with duct tape, for your own good and the good of others you might also set free.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I notice you didn't really address any of my points, but just parroted the same refrain again. This is starting to look like a pattern with you. I know it's a hard thing to find out you've been lied to by your denomination and those you have considered "church fathers", but you need to direct your angst towards wanting to know the TRUTH, not trying to hold together their house of straw with duct tape, for your own good and the good of others you might also set free.

In case you didn't notice I support what I say with the Scriptures, not duct tape.

 

[daqq]

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of..." when speaking to a sorcerer named Elymas:

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10).​

Of course Paul was not saying that Elymas was a literal son of the devil. Instead, he was saying that the "nature" of Elymas is that of the devil. So when it is said that the Lord Jesus is the "son of man" what is being said that His nature is that of man. And when it is said that He is the "son of God" what is being said is that His very nature is that of God.

Let us look at the way that the Unitarians understood the term "son of man" in regard to the Lord Jesus. The say:

"He did not 'toot his own horn,' but instead called himself 'the son of man,' which, in the Aramaic language he spoke, meant 'a man'" (biblicalunitarian.com).​

Since in the Aramaic language the term "son of man" means "man" then we can understand that in the same language the term "son of God" means "God."

Also it has already been explained what Luke and therefore Paul meant because Elymas is also called Bar-Jesus which, as explained, means "son of Jesus", and therefore Elymas Bar-Jesus son of Jesus is a word sorcerer because he makes Jesus into the Father. Sound familiar Bar-Jesus son of Jesus? YHWH is clearly our heavenly Father, in many passages, and clearly states that He desires His people to call Him, "my Father", (Jer 3:4, 19, as also already shown to you elsewhere).

I can understand why you do not want to address this passage and my remarks on it:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil.2:5-7).
​

When we look at this verse we can see that the Lord Jesus is in the "form" of God.

The Greek word translated "form" means "the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So since the Lord Jesus was in the form of God then the verse is speaking about how He will appear to the inhabitants of heaven:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

The Lord Jesus couldn't appear that way to those inhabitants unless He is God. And from this verse which describes the ONE sitting on the throne we can know that the Lord Jesus is God:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

Since Jehovah God is the only one who can be identified as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, then we can know that the following words of the Lord Jesus identify Him as God:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

We can know for certain that there are the words of the Lord Jesus because later we can see that the Apostle John knew that those words were spoken by the Lord Jesus. He said:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

What more evidence do you need before you will recognize the truth that the Lord Jesus is Jehovah God?

The problem with your reasoning is that you end up with a "Bar-Jesus" theology, (and not even Trinitarianism says that "Jesus is YHWH"). You have even quoted the passage where the Father says that those who overcome will be His son(s), (Revelation 21:7). The reason I say "Bar-Jesus" theology is because of what is clearly stated concerning Bar-Jesus, who is likewise Elymas the sorcerer, that is, a word sorcerer no doubt because "Bar-Jesus" means "Son of Jesus", ("bar" is Aramaic for "son"), which is exactly what your theology has concluded: that you are become "a son of Jesus", for you have essentially made Jesus into the Father, (which you plainly admit when you say he is "Jehovah God").

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Back to school with you.

If you keep working hard I am sure that it won't be long until they promote you to the fourth grade.