Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

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freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
:thumb:

Exodus 24:15-18 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
15 And Moses and Joshua went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain.
16 And the glory of God
[Elohim] came down upon the mount Sina, and the cloud covered it six days; and the Lord [YHWH] called Moses on the seventh day out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the appearance of the glory of the Lord
[YHWH] was as burning fire on the top of the mountain, before the children of Israel.
18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and went up to the mountain, and was there in the mountain forty days and forty nights.


Glory of Elohim – the cloud roundabout covering the mountain
Glory of YHWH – the consuming fire upon the apex of the mountain

But of course the Hebrew text does not read this way for some strange reason. :)

As I shared in my last post,...the glory of the Lord rests upon and indwells God's people, especially we of the new covenant, who have the indwelling Spirit within. God is sharing his glory with those whom he bestows it upon, although of course there can be no other Deity that has such glory, because there is Only Supreme Deity, the Father and Creator of all. He certainly shares his glory with His SON, who is heir to all He has....to all He IS.
 

daqq

Well-known member
As I shared in my last post,...the glory of the Lord rests upon and indwells God's people, especially we of the new covenant, who have the indwelling Spirit within. God is sharing his glory with those whom he bestows it upon, although of course there can be no other Deity that has such glory, because there is Only Supreme Deity, the Father and Creator of all. He certainly shares his glory with His SON, who is heir to all He has....to all He IS.

So perhaps his immersion is not just with fire but consuming fire? ;)
Good, Torah is not done away then . . . :)
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Am I stepping out of line for calling the idea that Jesus is Jehovah ABSURD? They are clearly two distinct persons, as anyone can see who bothers to read, for example, Psalm 110:1,2 or Isaiah 61:1 (along with Luke 4:18-21).

We can also see two individuals at Psalm 2:2,6-8:

"The kings of the earth take their stand and high officials have massed together as one against Jehovah AND against his anointed one....[Jehovah says] 'I, even I, have installed my king upon Zion, my holy mountain.' Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: 'You are my son...Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter's vessel you will dash them to pieces,'"

Does that look like Jehovah and Jesus are the same Person?


I think we agree that Jehovah is the Father, and is God Almighty. Jesus completely subjugated himself to the Father, and called the Father, Jehovah, "my God." "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He also called Jehovah "my God" at Revelation 3:12, when bringing an awesome vision to John.

It seems clear, I think, to a reasonable person, that Jehovah and Jesus are Father and Son....two distinct individuals.

Hierarchy and personhood does not preclude oneness between Jesus and the Father.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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HI EE,

I've amply discussed/debated the whole 'Alpha & Omega' things with JS here :) and elsewhere - In that particular thread we also go thru many other Unitarian/Trinitarian significant passages. The small nuances I share are important to the over-all 'context' of how we interpret the 'titles', but the most important is that Jesus is the 'Agent' of 'God', and as he serves in his Messianic/Prophet/Apostolic Office,....as God's Messenger...he is God's Word, God's Voice', God's active agency. With these titles specifically, a Unitarian, Trinitarian or some other Christological view or nuance could just as well fit within any given context,...but we must be careful to appropriate our translation within what is allowed via 'context', and what is being revealed 'figuratively'. - this is key.

Mt. 5:9

: )
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Banned
Following from here & here,

No matter what 'God' says in the OT, doesn't 'God' share his glory with his people? He covenants with them, bestows his name and blessings upon them,...sure sounds like 'God' shares his glory with his people, even more so in the new covenant community, where every single soul is actually the very TEMPLE of the living God! Is God, not now sharing his glory, his very PRESENCE with us?, not only within our own tabernacles, but his omnipresence fills the heavens and the earth. God shares his glory with his people, certainly. In this very flesh body, dwells the Spirit of God.

Now as to whether 'God' shares he glory with any other 'Gods', he cannot, since there is no other 'Real God' but the One and Only 'God'. 'God' in truth is ONE. - however, other heavenly beings, messengers are called 'elohim'(gods), as well as human beings holding special and high offices, such as kings, judges and the Messiah himself....are called 'elohim'(God/gods), as they represent 'God'. This recognition and understanding can be had within a Unitarian or Trinitarian context,....in the former,...Jesus ever remains separate and distinct from YHWH, assuming this YHWH is actually The Father, Jesus being the begotten Son of this Father. What is kind of confusing however within the latter Trinitarian camp, is that some continue to claim Jesus is YHWH, which makes Jesus the pre-incarnate Deity revealing himself thru-out the OT. If this is the case,...where the Father fits into the picture is somewhat obscure, except the Father is more defined when Jesus is incarnated, making the father the invisible Deity in heaven, while Jesus is a man manifested on earth.

Otherwise,...Jesus did not exist before his human birth, and it was the Father-God all along who is properly 'God', working behind the scenes and revealing himself and his word thru his prophets, and in this current dispensation speaking to us thru his Son, whom hes made heir of all things. So,...you have some confusions within a Trinitarian format about who is who, and in what arrangement they occur, or in what appropriation, which gives way to all kinds of modalities within a Godhead context,...since any could be morphing into the other, unless all persons in the Godhead are forever separate and distinct, yet they are all somehow ONE BEING. - without getting to complicated by versing this all out,...some more simple biblical Unitarians are just fine with their theology, which does not come with the complications associated with traditional orthodox Trinitarianism. My own more liberal Christology while bearing some Unitarian format, is also quite Monist,...since God is the One Infinite Spirit thru-out, the one universal life, breath, power, energy, light and love...that is Deity. All else is but a play on words, with various personifications of 'God', which you can assume and arrange per your own preference.

At the end of the day as shared elsewhere, Jesus is the AGENT of 'God' (in whatever manner or capacity). The key is understanding the concept of 'agency'. - all else falls into place no matter what spin of 'Christology' you prefer, while the universal ethics, morals and principles of true religion holds thru-out.

Obviously He doesn't....your skewed version of what constitutes His glory notwithstanding.

:thumb:

Exodus 24:15-18 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
15 And Moses and Joshua went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain.
16 And the glory of God
[Elohim] came down upon the mount Sina, and the cloud covered it six days; and the Lord [YHWH] called Moses on the seventh day out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the appearance of the glory of the Lord
[YHWH] was as burning fire on the top of the mountain, before the children of Israel.
18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and went up to the mountain, and was there in the mountain forty days and forty nights.


Glory of Elohim – the cloud roundabout covering the mountain
Glory of YHWH – the consuming fire upon the apex of the mountain

But of course the Hebrew text does not read this way for some strange reason. :)

I will say only this... Jesus is our key to understanding God and His Love for us. The sad truth is that various viewpoints come with baggage.

The actual understanding of God will not be complete until "all is one". As Jesus is from the Spirit... the Holy Spirit is from Jesus... and we are born of God's design... So the Holy Spirit is in us.. that we may be in Christ... as Christ is in the Father.

All eludes to a mysterious order and master plan of unity.

Trinity, Absolute Oneness, Arian, Variant Understandings... we could articulate the mystery with perfect clarity... but... 1 Cor. 13:2 makes it clear that there is a higher call than "understanding".

Peace to you who each communicate from different perspectives.

Truly... I enjoy reading each of your expressions.

#I'm wish everyone could be as right as me.
#Rotfl... couldn't keep a straight face...
#Our hope is in the glory of "seeing and understanding" when, either we pierce the veil of death... or He removes it before so.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Banned
Following from here & here,

No matter what 'God' says in the OT, doesn't 'God' share his glory with his people? He covenants with them, bestows his name and blessings upon them,...sure sounds like 'God' shares his glory with his people, even more so in the new covenant community, where every single soul is actually the very TEMPLE of the living God! Is God, not now sharing his glory, his very PRESENCE with us?, not only within our own tabernacles, but his omnipresence fills the heavens and the earth. God shares his glory with his people, certainly. In this very flesh body, dwells the Spirit of God.

Now as to whether 'God' shares he glory with any other 'Gods', he cannot, since there is no other 'Real God' but the One and Only 'God'. 'God' in truth is ONE. - however, other heavenly beings, messengers are called 'elohim'(gods), as well as human beings holding special and high offices, such as kings, judges and the Messiah himself....are called 'elohim'(God/gods), as they represent 'God'. This recognition and understanding can be had within a Unitarian or Trinitarian context,....in the former,...Jesus ever remains separate and distinct from YHWH, assuming this YHWH is actually The Father, Jesus being the begotten Son of this Father. What is kind of confusing however within the latter Trinitarian camp, is that some continue to claim Jesus is YHWH, which makes Jesus the pre-incarnate Deity revealing himself thru-out the OT. If this is the case,...where the Father fits into the picture is somewhat obscure, except the Father is more defined when Jesus is incarnated, making the father the invisible Deity in heaven, while Jesus is a man manifested on earth.

Otherwise,...Jesus did not exist before his human birth, and it was the Father-God all along who is properly 'God', working behind the scenes and revealing himself and his word thru his prophets, and in this current dispensation speaking to us thru his Son, whom hes made heir of all things. So,...you have some confusions within a Trinitarian format about who is who, and in what arrangement they occur, or in what appropriation, which gives way to all kinds of modalities within a Godhead context,...since any could be morphing into the other, unless all persons in the Godhead are forever separate and distinct, yet they are all somehow ONE BEING. - without getting to complicated by versing this all out,...some more simple biblical Unitarians are just fine with their theology, which does not come with the complications associated with traditional orthodox Trinitarianism. My own more liberal Christology while bearing some Unitarian format, is also quite Monist,...since God is the One Infinite Spirit thru-out, the one universal life, breath, power, energy, light and love...that is Deity. All else is but a play on words, with various personifications of 'God', which you can assume and arrange per your own preference.

At the end of the day as shared elsewhere, Jesus is the AGENT of 'God' (in whatever manner or capacity). The key is understanding the concept of 'agency'. - all else falls into place no matter what spin of 'Christology' you prefer, while the universal ethics, morals and principles of true religion holds thru-out.

Obviously He doesn't....your skewed version of what constitutes His glory notwithstanding.


One thing that I will say... my pet view is blatantly clear... but... the worst damage that has been done to Christian unity... is the idea that we are not allowed by dogma to simply say... "I don't know".

The Bible makes certain things enormously clear... but... it also leaves "mystery".

I believe all "dogma" that seeks to fill in the blanks... in reference to the "Mystery" of the 3 that testify... 1 Jn. 5:7... rips the "Body" of Christ apart as horribly as the scourge whip did.

In this... I pray for the peace of all who call on YHWH in any form or fashion and look forward to the day when all human strife ceases.

#I've got to go and stir up strife some more
# : )
 

KingdomRose

New member

John 10:30 simply means that Jesus and his Father are united in thought. They're on the same page. It couldn't mean that Jesus and the Father are the same Person. It has amply been shown that they are two separate individuals. (Isaiah 61:1,2; Psalm 110:1,2)

Jesus and the Father are "one" just as the DISCIPLES are "one" with Jesus and the Father. What do you say about this?

Jesus to his Father in prayer: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that You sent me. The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected in unity..." (John 17:20-23, NASB)

Are the disciples also God? Do you see what being "one" really means?
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
John 10:30 simply means that Jesus and his Father are united in thought. They're on the same page. It couldn't mean that Jesus and the Father are the same Person. It has amply been shown that they are two separate individuals. (Isaiah 61:1,2; Psalm 110:1,2)

Jesus and the Father are "one" just as the DISCIPLES are "one" with Jesus and the Father. What do you say about this?

Jesus to his Father in prayer: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that You sent me. The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected in unity..." (John 17:20-23, NASB)

Are the disciples also God? Do you see what being "one" really means?

Do you see what one really means?
What could unify Christ with the Father? The Holy Spirit. Christ did not get it by repenting. He had it from the beginning, begotten of His Father.

We are either one spiritually with God, or we are not. We either share in Him and His Spirit or we don't.

Do you see what one really is?
 

randomvim

New member
Am I stepping out of line for calling the idea that Jesus is Jehovah ABSURD? They are clearly two distinct persons, as anyone can see who bothers to read, for example, Psalm 110:1,2 or Isaiah 61:1 (along with Luke 4:18-21).

We can also see two individuals at Psalm 2:2,6-8:

"The kings of the earth take their stand and high officials have massed together as one against Jehovah AND against his anointed one....[Jehovah says] 'I, even I, have installed my king upon Zion, my holy mountain.' Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: 'You are my son...Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter's vessel you will dash them to pieces,'"

Does that look like Jehovah and Jesus are the same Person?


I think we agree that Jehovah is the Father, and is God Almighty. Jesus completely subjugated himself to the Father, and called the Father, Jehovah, "my God." "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He also called Jehovah "my God" at Revelation 3:12, when bringing an awesome vision to John.

It seems clear, I think, to a reasonable person, that Jehovah and Jesus are Father and Son....two distinct individuals.
what makes this different from any pegan religion?

Sent from my LG-K330 using Tapatalk
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
John 10:30 simply means that Jesus and his Father are united in thought. They're on the same page. It couldn't mean that Jesus and the Father are the same Person. It has amply been shown that they are two separate individuals. (Isaiah 61:1,2; Psalm 110:1,2)

Jesus and the Father are "one" just as the DISCIPLES are "one" with Jesus and the Father. What do you say about this?

Jesus to his Father in prayer: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that You sent me. The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected in unity..." (John 17:20-23, NASB)

Are the disciples also God? Do you see what being "one" really means?
Watchtower declares Jesus Jehovah God.

 

KingdomRose

New member
Watchtower declares Jesus Jehovah God.


The Watchtower does not say that Jesus is Jehovah, and it is quite silly and counterproductive for you to indicate such a thing.

I have posted many posts on this thread to show unequivocally that Jesus is NOT Jehovah. Yet you twist around scriptures that can apply to both Jesus and Jehovah and we are supposed to believe your nonsense?
 

KingdomRose

New member
Your Bible does. Did you even watch the video?

I started to, but 8 minutes is a little long to subject myself to balderdash. The New World Translation does NOT say that Jesus is Jehovah, and I have answered this same accusation before. You tell me---where does the Bible say that Jesus is Jehovah?
 

Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I started to, but 8 minutes is a little long to subject myself to balderdash. The New World Translation does NOT say that Jesus is Jehovah, and I have answered this same accusation before. You tell me---where does the Bible say that Jesus is Jehovah?

First, eight minutes is nothing compared to eternity. Do you have a NWT Reference bible. If you do I will tell you where to go even though it is shown in the short video. Waiting for your reply.
 

KingdomRose

New member
First, eight minutes is nothing compared to eternity. Do you have a NWT Reference bible. If you do I will tell you where to go even though it is shown in the short video. Waiting for your reply.

Eight minutes IS alot of time when there is truth to be spread and I am pausing to listen to garbage.

Of course I have the reference Bible. What is the scripture?
 
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