I understand your assertion. I'm moving to your thread... This Day have I begotten... OP. I have introduced my opening debate caveat.
Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."
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I understand your assertion. I'm moving to your thread... This Day have I begotten... OP. I have introduced my opening debate caveat.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hi EE,............as you know, my Christology includes both Unitarian and Trinitarian views (and many inbetween or beyond these), I'm only holding a more Unitarian view for the sake of 'contrastive discussion',...such a 'tension' is essential for more die-hard Trinitarians to become more flexible or fluid in their acceptance of other alternative views,....AND their view of Jesus human and divine natures ALLOWS them to maintain a Unitarian view on certain matters pertaining to Jesus being a 'Man' anointed by God, but they include MORE by 'assuming' an eternal personality existing before Jesus incarnation, within an assumed eternal Trinity, which actually gives them a more versatile handling of the personality of Jesus in some ways, but these are more problematic for more serious Unitarians. I'm pretty liberal and eclectic here, so recognize variables and tensions, seeking to include, differentiate yet reconcile, synergize or favor a particular view over another, but acknowledge that any view could be taken, of course,...some just may be more tenable, rational or logical than another, or just some slight nuance may tip the scales to one view or another,...its all 'relative', a matter of point of view.
'God' is still 'God',....and God has a Son and sons. There is 'God' and the offspring of God. There is the Generator and the generations. There is Creator and creation.
I confess the same. Not all are flexible enough to understand all sides as you and [MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] do. I approach the matter knowing most perspectives and how to back them as well.
I cannot emphasize enough that Love and friendship are much more important to me.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
:thumb:
Good to keep in your spiritual consciousness center, which looks into the heart of things, as well as ever retaining its transcendental sphere, looking down at all the various perspectives, which are merely points of view. From Consciousness itself, which is all-inclusive, yet all transcending....we remain spiritually free. As our minds dive down into and play with various conceptual frames and doctrinal formulas, we can recognize them, for being just that. They are but de-scriptions.
KingdomRose
New member
Are you confused? Romans 10:9,10 does not say that Jesus is Jehovah. It says that "Jesus is Lord." That is not the same as "Jesus is Jehovah." We already realize that Jesus is Lord of lords. That doesn't make him Jehovah. The two are clearly DIFFERENTIATED throughout the Bible. Jeremiah 17:7 brings out that it is necessary to put one's faith in Jehovah. Does that show that Jehovah and Jesus are the same Person? No, and the NWT does not say that Jesus is Jehovah, and you could see this if you opened your eyes.
Romans 10:13 says, in the New World Translation: "For 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.'" OK. What's your objection? This quotes Joel 2:32 in the O.T., where the name "Jehovah" (YHWH) appears in the original Hebrew. There is nothing there to refute our belief that we must call on Jehovah and trust and obey Him, THROUGH His Son, Jesus Christ.
Here is one scripture out of many that differentiate between Jehovah, the Father, who is God, and His Son.
"There is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things and we exist for Him; AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through him." (I Corinthians 8:4b-6, NASB)
Two separate individuals. Jehovah's name saves, and we must put faith in Jesus' name as well, because Jehovah says so.
KingdomRose
New member
Yes.
marhig
Well-known member
Yes, he must certainly is
KingdomRose
New member
Hello. It's interesting that people take that one verse and confuse the whole issue by saying, "Oh no, it wasn't the Father that raised up Jesus....he did it himself!" LOL. Let's be reasonable. In no way can a truly dead person bring himself back to life. Dead is DEAD.....senseless, not conscious of anything.
The Trinity is a fallacy and it is ridiculous to argue that it raised Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is the Father's power. Anything the Spirit does, it's actually the Father doing it. Jesus said that the H.S. came from the Father. He REQUESTED Holy Spirit of his Father. (John 14:16,17,26; 15:26)
So who raised Jesus from the dead? It couldn't be that a dead person raised himself....otherwise he would not have been truly dead. It must have been the Father. But how can it be said that Jesus raised himself? This way:
By Jesus' perfect obedience as a human, he provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead, thus acknowledging Jesus as God's Son. Because of his faithful course of life, it could properly be said that Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection.
In Word Pictures in the New Testament, A.T. Robertson says: "Recall John 2:19 where Jesus said: 'And in three days I will raise it up.' He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently of the Father as the active agent (Romans 8:11)." (New York, 1932, Vol.V, p.183)
We already know that the Father is in His Son, but you say the Father IS His Son.
error.
LA
If you care to read the context, God said He would not share His glory with anyone but His Servant--
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
LA
drbrumley
Well-known member
And your point is? Since Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man (see Daniel) and the 2nd person of the Godhead, your example proves yet again that Jesus is God in the flesh.
You guys don't seem to realize sin cannot be wasked away by human blood, goats blood, bull's blood etc....BUT you kind folks say Jesus was a mere man, used by God, to put an end to sin and death. :idunno:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Sons share the glory of the Father........
Sons share the glory of the Father........
Following from here & here,
No matter what 'God' says in the OT, doesn't 'God' share his glory with his people? He covenants with them, bestows his name and blessings upon them,...sure sounds like 'God' shares his glory with his people, even more so in the new covenant community, where every single soul is actually the very TEMPLE of the living God! Is God, not now sharing his glory, his very PRESENCE with us?, not only within our own tabernacles, but his omnipresence fills the heavens and the earth. God shares his glory with his people, certainly. In this very flesh body, dwells the Spirit of God.
Now as to whether 'God' shares he glory with any other 'Gods', he cannot, since there is no other 'Real God' but the One and Only 'God'. 'God' in truth is ONE. - however, other heavenly beings, messengers are called 'elohim'(gods), as well as human beings holding special and high offices, such as kings, judges and the Messiah himself....are called 'elohim'(God/gods), as they represent 'God'. This recognition and understanding can be had within a Unitarian or Trinitarian context,....in the former,...Jesus ever remains separate and distinct from YHWH, assuming this YHWH is actually The Father, Jesus being the begotten Son of this Father. What is kind of confusing however within the latter Trinitarian camp, is that some continue to claim Jesus is YHWH, which makes Jesus the pre-incarnate Deity revealing himself thru-out the OT. If this is the case,...where the Father fits into the picture is somewhat obscure, except the Father is more defined when Jesus is incarnated, making the father the invisible Deity in heaven, while Jesus is a man manifested on earth.
Otherwise,...Jesus did not exist before his human birth, and it was the Father-God all along who is properly 'God', working behind the scenes and revealing himself and his word thru his prophets, and in this current dispensation speaking to us thru his Son, whom hes made heir of all things. So,...you have some confusions within a Trinitarian format about who is who, and in what arrangement they occur, or in what appropriation, which gives way to all kinds of modalities within a Godhead context,...since any could be morphing into the other, unless all persons in the Godhead are forever separate and distinct, yet they are all somehow ONE BEING. - without getting to complicated by versing this all out,...some more simple biblical Unitarians are just fine with their theology, which does not come with the complications associated with traditional orthodox Trinitarianism. My own more liberal Christology while bearing some Unitarian format, is also quite Monist,...since God is the One Infinite Spirit thru-out, the one universal life, breath, power, energy, light and love...that is Deity. All else is but a play on words, with various personifications of 'God', which you can assume and arrange per your own preference.
At the end of the day as shared elsewhere, Jesus is the AGENT of 'God' (in whatever manner or capacity). The key is understanding the concept of 'agency'. - all else falls into place no matter what spin of 'Christology' you prefer, while the universal ethics, morals and principles of true religion holds thru-out.
Sons share the glory of the Father........
Following from here & here,
No matter what 'God' says in the OT, doesn't 'God' share his glory with his people? He covenants with them, bestows his name and blessings upon them,...sure sounds like 'God' shares his glory with his people, even more so in the new covenant community, where every single soul is actually the very TEMPLE of the living God! Is God, not now sharing his glory, his very PRESENCE with us?, not only within our own tabernacles, but his omnipresence fills the heavens and the earth. God shares his glory with his people, certainly. In this very flesh body, dwells the Spirit of God.
Now as to whether 'God' shares he glory with any other 'Gods', he cannot, since there is no other 'Real God' but the One and Only 'God'. 'God' in truth is ONE. - however, other heavenly beings, messengers are called 'elohim'(gods), as well as human beings holding special and high offices, such as kings, judges and the Messiah himself....are called 'elohim'(God/gods), as they represent 'God'. This recognition and understanding can be had within a Unitarian or Trinitarian context,....in the former,...Jesus ever remains separate and distinct from YHWH, assuming this YHWH is actually The Father, Jesus being the begotten Son of this Father. What is kind of confusing however within the latter Trinitarian camp, is that some continue to claim Jesus is YHWH, which makes Jesus the pre-incarnate Deity revealing himself thru-out the OT. If this is the case,...where the Father fits into the picture is somewhat obscure, except the Father is more defined when Jesus is incarnated, making the father the invisible Deity in heaven, while Jesus is a man manifested on earth.
Otherwise,...Jesus did not exist before his human birth, and it was the Father-God all along who is properly 'God', working behind the scenes and revealing himself and his word thru his prophets, and in this current dispensation speaking to us thru his Son, whom hes made heir of all things. So,...you have some confusions within a Trinitarian format about who is who, and in what arrangement they occur, or in what appropriation, which gives way to all kinds of modalities within a Godhead context,...since any could be morphing into the other, unless all persons in the Godhead are forever separate and distinct, yet they are all somehow ONE BEING. - without getting to complicated by versing this all out,...some more simple biblical Unitarians are just fine with their theology, which does not come with the complications associated with traditional orthodox Trinitarianism. My own more liberal Christology while bearing some Unitarian format, is also quite Monist,...since God is the One Infinite Spirit thru-out, the one universal life, breath, power, energy, light and love...that is Deity. All else is but a play on words, with various personifications of 'God', which you can assume and arrange per your own preference.
At the end of the day as shared elsewhere, Jesus is the AGENT of 'God' (in whatever manner or capacity). The key is understanding the concept of 'agency'. - all else falls into place no matter what spin of 'Christology' you prefer, while the universal ethics, morals and principles of true religion holds thru-out.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Obviously He doesn't....your skewed version of what constitutes His glory notwithstanding.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
'Constitutions' vary,...may be to your advantage to consider the scope and breadth of such
drbrumley
Well-known member
No, but Jesus was also divinity.
So you believe Jesus had to be God in order to effect the atonement.
What about a righteous man?
So you do not believe God could raise up a 100% righteous man? From that we see unbelief.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
LA
He will dismiss these verses because you don't understand.
:thumb:
Exodus 24:15-18 Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
15 And Moses and Joshua went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain.
16 And the glory of God [Elohim] came down upon the mount Sina, and the cloud covered it six days; and the Lord [YHWH] called Moses on the seventh day out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the appearance of the glory of the Lord [YHWH] was as burning fire on the top of the mountain, before the children of Israel.
18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and went up to the mountain, and was there in the mountain forty days and forty nights.
Glory of Elohim – the cloud roundabout covering the mountain
Glory of YHWH – the consuming fire upon the apex of the mountain
But of course the Hebrew text does not read this way for some strange reason.
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