Jesus, Paul and the Gospel

[daqq]

Do and observe what the pharisee says to do and observe. They sit in the seat of Moses. Red letters. And not what Paul preached.

Matthew 23.

You have already been exposed as a fraud in this so every time you repeat it you show yourself an intentional rejector of the truth: no wonder you have me on ignore, but it is to your own detriment and double hardened blindness. Likewise RP already referenced in his OP one of the passages that ultimately answers to what you have posted again here in this thread; but unfortunately for him, and for people such as others in this thread including yourself, he twists the words of Paul to supposedly mean "abolishing the Torah" when the passage clearly speaks of the dogmasin-dogmas of the sanhedrin, elders, and rulers of the people. You and yours have simply made up a new set of dogmasin so as to bring people back under the burdens of your own new laws, decrees, and dogmasin. The Master by Way of his Testimony has set me free from you and your Pharisee fathers and your harlot mother church of the third century with all their false interpretations and dogmas concerning the scripture and especially the Torah.

 

[Robert Pate]

You have already been exposed as a fraud in this so every time you repeat it you show yourself an intentional rejector of the truth: no wonder you have me on ignore, but it is to your own detriment and double hardened blindness. Likewise RP already referenced in his OP one of the passages that ultimately answers to what you have posted again here in this thread; but unfortunately for him, and for people such as others in this thread including yourself, he twists the words of Paul to supposedly mean "abolishing the Torah" when the passage clearly speaks of the dogmasin-dogmas of the sanhedrin, elders, and rulers of the people. You and yours have simply made up a new set of dogmasin so as to bring people back under the burdens of your own new laws, decrees, and dogmasin. The Master by Way of his Testimony has set me free from you and your Pharisee fathers and your harlot mother church of the third century with all their false interpretations and dogmas concerning the scripture and especially the Torah.

To be under the law is to be under condemnation and judgement. This is why Christians are not under the law nor are they subject to it. This is why Paul wrote,

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TO US and took it out of the way , nailing it to his cross" Colossians 2:14.

We are not under it or subject to it because no one can do it or keep it, its impossible.

 

[daqq]

To be under the law is to be under condemnation and judgement. This is why Christians are not under the law nor are they subject to it. This is why Paul wrote,

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TO US and took it out of the way , nailing it to his cross" Colossians 2:14.

We are not under it or subject to it because no one can do it or keep it, its impossible.

Blahahahaha, lol, you just quoted the other passage which I spoke of, and it again proves my point in exactly what I said to Nick, which words of mine you just quoted in your own post. You are the blind leading the blind:

Colossians 2:14 W/H
14 εξαλειψας το καθ ημων χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν ο ην υπεναντιον ημιν και αυτο ηρκεν εκ του μεσου προσηλωσας αυτο τω σταυρω

Ephesians 2:15 W/H
15 την εχθραν εν τη σαρκι αυτου τον νομον των εντολων εν δογμασιν καταργησας ινα τους δυο κτιση εν αυτω εις ενα καινον ανθρωπον ποιων ειρηνην

Your dogmasin, the dogmasin of your Pharisee fathers, and the dogmasin of your harlot mother church has all been annulled by the Testimony of the Messiah. You too are actually helping to bring others into the bondage of sin by teaching people they have no need for the Torah. I need only the Testimony of the Master to understand the holy, supernal, and spiritual Torah; but unlike you I also have the testimony of his servant Paul because Paul likewise teaches the commandments of the Master in his writings. And this I know because I understand and believe first and foremost the Testimony of the Master found in the Gospel accounts; and the words of Paul must be understood through the lenses of the Testimony of the Master.

See Matthew 5:17,18,19,20, for starters, O teacher against the Torah; for that statement is not going to pass away, and without applying the Testimony of Messiah to yourself, and to your doctrine, you are not covered under his atoning Testimony which he received from the Father above and yet paid for with his own blood.

 

[daqq]

To be under the law is to be under condemnation and judgement. This is why Christians are not under the law nor are they subject to it. This is why Paul wrote,

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TO US and took it out of the way , nailing it to his cross" Colossians 2:14.

We are not under it or subject to it because no one can do it or keep it, its impossible.

And, by the way, if Torah is a rod of iron in my hand, (and it is), then I am not under it.

 

[Robert Pate]

Blahahahaha, lol, you just quoted the other passage which I spoke of, and it again proves my point in exactly what I said to Nick, which words of mine you just quoted in your own post. You are the blind leading the blind:

Colossians 2:14 W/H
14 εξαλειψας το καθ ημων χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν ο ην υπεναντιον ημιν και αυτο ηρκεν εκ του μεσου προσηλωσας αυτο τω σταυρω

Ephesians 2:15 W/H
15 την εχθραν εν τη σαρκι αυτου τον νομον των εντολων εν δογμασιν καταργησας ινα τους δυο κτιση εν αυτω εις ενα καινον ανθρωπον ποιων ειρηνην

Your dogmasin, the dogmasin of your Pharisee fathers, and the dogmasin of your harlot mother church has all been annulled by the Testimony of the Messiah. You too are actually helping to bring others into the bondage of sin by teaching people they have no need for the Torah. I need only the Testimony of the Master to understand the holy, supernal, and spiritual Torah; but unlike you I also have the testimony of his servant Paul because Paul likewise teaches the commandments of the Master in his writings. And this I know because I understand and believe first and foremost the Testimony of the Master found in the Gospel accounts; and the words of Paul must be understood through the lenses of the Testimony of the Master.

See Matthew 5:17,18,19,20, for starters, O teacher against the Torah; for that statement is not going to pass away, and without applying the Testimony of Messiah to yourself, and to your doctrine, you are not covered under his atoning Testimony which he received from the Father above and yet paid for with his own blood.

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the law, Romans 10:4. The only way that your righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is to be found "in Christ". Matthew 5:17-20 does not refute what I said. You want to believe that the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul are in Conflict with each other. They are not, but as long as you believe that, you will continue to be without the truth.

 

[daqq]

And, by the way, if Torah is a rod of iron in my hand, (and it is), then I am not under it.

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the Torah is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the Torah that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me, (that is, in my flesh).
21 I find then a precept, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the Torah of Elohim according to the inward man:
23 But I see another Torah in my members, (which is Sinai), warring against the Torah of my mind, (which is Horeb), and bringing me into captivity to the Torah of sin, (and death), which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am: Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 It is By the grace of Elohim through Messiah Yeshua our Master: so then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim, (Horeb, and of above), but with the flesh I serve the Torah of sin, (Sinai, and of below).

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 ASV
26 I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:
27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: (into subjection, with the Torah of sin and death, that is, Sinai, and of below, meaning the physical body) lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

 

[daqq]

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the law, Romans 10:4. The only way that your righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is to be found "in Christ". Matthew 5:17-20 does not refute what I said. You want to believe that the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul are in Conflict with each other. They are not, but as long as you believe that, you will continue to be without the truth.

Again you are essentially teaching that Messiah has been "abolished" by way of your misunderstanding of the texts which you quote. That is telos-end which means "a point aimed at" and not "abolished" as you imagine. If it means what you say then you contradict the Testimony of Messiah in Luke 22:37, Rev 21:6, and Rev 22:13, and a host of other passages where telos-point-aimed-at is employed. This has already been expounded many times over in these forums, search it for yourself in the forum search feature: even your pals Evil.Eye and Jerry both know full well about this and yet, like you, continue to spout untruths from misapplied, misunderstood, and faulty interpretations of the words of Paul. You are twisting and wresting the words and teachings of Paul just as 2Pet 3:16 warns you not to do.

 

[Robert Pate]

Again you are essentially teaching that Messiah has been "abolished" by way of your misunderstanding of the texts which you quote. That is telos-end which means "a point aimed at" and not "abolished" as you imagine. If it means what you say then you contradict the Testimony of Messiah in Luke 22:37, Rev 21:6, and Rev 22:13, and a host of other passages where telos-point-aimed-at is employed. This has already been expounded many times over in these forums, search it for yourself in the forum search feature: even your pals Evil.Eye and Jerry both know full well about this and yet, like you, continue to spout untruths from misapplied, misunderstood, and faulty interpretations of the words of Paul. You are twisting and wresting the words and teachings of Paul just as 2Pet 3:16 warns you not to do.

You seem to think that the law is your Jesus. God never intended for his people to live by laws and rules. The law was given to show that we don't measure up to God's standards and we need a savior. What kind of relationship can you have with God if you are still subject to laws and rules. Is God your taskmaster that is ready to crack you on your back if you fail, I hardly think so. Paul got his information directly from Jesus, Galatians 1:11-12. But you probably think that is just another one of Paul's lies. Without the epistles of Paul you will never have the truth.

 

[daqq]

You seem to think that the law is your Jesus. God never intended for his people to live by laws and rules. The law was given to show that we don't measure up to God's standards and we need a savior. What kind of relationship can you have with God if you are still subject to laws and rules. Is God your taskmaster that is ready to crack you on your back if you fail, I hardly think so. Paul got his information directly from Jesus, Galatians 1:11-12. But you probably think that is just another one of Paul's lies. Without the epistles of Paul you will never have the truth.

My Elohim is no taskmaster, and I have already explained to you why: but as for what Paul says in Galatians 1:11-12 I fully believe what he says, as I told you, I do believe all his writings and know them to be true by way of the Testimony of Messiah which he preaches. However I suspect it is you who does not actually understand what he says in the very passage which you have now quoted to supposedly make your point:

Galatians 1:12 W/H
12 ουδε γαρ εγω παρα ανθρωπου παρελαβον αυτο ουτε εδιδαχθην αλλα δι αποκαλυψεως ιησου χριστου

Revelation 1:1 W/H
1 αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου ην εδωκεν αυτω ο θεος δειξαι τοις δουλοις αυτου α δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει και εσημανεν αποστειλας δια του αγγελου αυτου τω δουλω αυτου ιωαννη

Do you indeed understand where Paul actually received his Gospel from?
I know where he received it by way of experience and a walk with and in Messiah.

 

[beloved57]

Some believe that what Jesus said and what Paul has said are in conflict with each other. Like they are two entirely different doctrines, the doctrine of Jesus and the doctrine of Paul. Jesus did not teach salvation by grace through faith, he left that up to Paul and the other apostles. Jesus taught the law. He not only taught the law, he elevated the law and spiritualized it. Jesus would frequently read the law of Moses and then he would say, "But I say unto you". An example would be, Matthew 5:43,44, Jesus said, "You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemies, But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you". This is how Jesus would elevate the law.

Jesus also spiritualized the written law of Moses, so that now, the law searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Paul also brought this out when he said, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" Romans 7:14. This means that every thought is subject to the law. An example would be Matthew 5:27, 28. Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not commit adultery. But I say unto you... That whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart".

The purpose of the law is to reveal the nature and the character of God. He is holy beyond human comprehension. Jesus was God's law incarnate in human flesh. Paul brought this out when he wrote, "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets" Romans 3:21. Jesus is not only the law of God, he is the epitome of the law. Another purpose of the law is to reveal the sinful nature of man. The reason that thousands and thousands of Jews were converted to Christ on the day of Pentecost is because they had been following Jesus around for several years hearing him preach the law. They were convinced that they needed a savior. If God's law does not convince you that have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, nothing will, Romans 3:23.

What Jesus taught and what Paul taught are very compatible. Jesus taught the law, which condemns and Paul taught the Gospel that saves and justifies lost sinners, Romans 4:5. The law cannot save or justify. If you think that you can do, or keep God's law you are just deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you, 1 John 1:8.

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of God's law. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes" Romans 10:4. For those that are "In Christ" the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. For those that are NOT in Christ, you will be judged by the law, found guilty of breaking the law and condemned to hell. To be found "In Christ" Philippians 3:9, means that you have abandoned your righteousness or your religion and you are trusting in the righteousness of Christ to save you. We rest in his work and not our own, Hebrews 4:10.

There are two things that God requires for the salvation of fallen man. A life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world. Both of these requirements have been fully met by the work and the person of Jesus Christ. We now stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10.

You dont believe the Gospel, you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost !

 

[Robert Pate]

My Elohim is no taskmaster, and I have already explained to you why: but as for what Paul says in Galatians 1:11-12 I fully believe what he says, as I told you, I do believe all his writings and know them to be true by way of the Testimony of Messiah which he preaches. However I suspect it is you who does not actually understand what he says in the very passage which you have now quoted to supposedly make your point:

Galatians 1:12 W/H
12 ουδε γαρ εγω παρα ανθρωπου παρελαβον αυτο ουτε εδιδαχθην αλλα δι αποκαλυψεως ιησου χριστου

Revelation 1:1 W/H
1 αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου ην εδωκεν αυτω ο θεος δειξαι τοις δουλοις αυτου α δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει και εσημανεν αποστειλας δια του αγγελου αυτου τω δουλω αυτου ιωαννη

Do you indeed understand where Paul actually received his Gospel from?
I know where he received it by way of experience and a walk with and in Messiah.

It was not really Paul's Gospel. It was Christ's Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. The Gospel is not about the law that has been abolished, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" Ephesians 2:15. To deny that Jesus has abolished the law is to deny the Gospel. To deny the Gospel is to deny Jesus Christ. I think that you have a serious problem with Paul, the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

 

[daqq]

It was not really Paul's Gospel. It was Christ's Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. The Gospel is not about the law that has been abolished, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" Ephesians 2:15. To deny that Jesus has abolished the law is to deny the Gospel. To deny the Gospel is to deny Jesus Christ. I think that you have a serious problem with Paul, the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

Truth has nothing to do with what you "think" if you do not have the scripture to back up what you "think". And unfortunately for you, you do not have scripture to back up what you "think". In fact what you "think" is already condemned by the Master in Matthew 5:17-20. And since you reject what he clearly and emphatically states in that passage alone you are already to be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven, that is, if you are in the kingdom of heaven at all; but from other things you have already said elsewhere it appears much more likely that the wrath of Elohim abides upon you for rejecting the holy Testimony of the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 3:18,36).

 

[Zeke]

Yup... I quoted the whole thing. You link it all to Christ and acknowledged the work of Christ, through Paul. Well written Robert... and all respect to you for forever exalting Jesus as our only hope. I have always loved reading your OP's and still do to this day.

Jesus laid it all out and did it all... and Paul proclaimed it after Jesus jerked him up by his "sandal straps".

:thumb:

And those events happened within Galatians 1:12, John 1:13, God's kingdom Luke 17:20-21, Acts 17:24, and is still going on unlike the carnal events invented by Rome around the third century that tried to slay the lamb after the foundation of the world, a secularized christ that is argued about from generation to generation but his kingdom never manifest to the sons of hagar Matt 11:11, and they are never sure Luke 7:20 looking for him outwardly is a search that will find a christ of the flesh among flesh like the traditional nursery rhyme feeds its children, and prevents/veils those seeking Christ from entering into Gods kingdom.

 

[Zeke]

Do and observe what the pharisee says to do and observe. They sit in the seat of Moses. Red letters. And not what Paul preached.

You are seated in Rome seeing you base you're beliefs on that foundation which is a flesh and blood sacrifice and patronize this worlds govern mentalist, The mystery is that you claim to know it yet have no signs and wonders that Jesus within you would follow you, instead you await some kingdom that will never manifest, John 5:21, Luke 20:38, John 11:25 you're I AM is still based out of the Jerusalem below Galatians 4:24.

1Cor 2:14 wake up Nick.

 

[Robert Pate]

Truth has nothing to do with what you "think" if you do not have the scripture to back up what you "think". And unfortunately for you, you do not have scripture to back up what you "think". In fact what you "think" is already condemned by the Master in Matthew 5:17-20. And since you reject what he clearly and emphatically states in that passage alone you are already to be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven, that is, if you are in the kingdom of heaven at all; but from other things you have already said elsewhere it appears much more likely that the wrath of Elohim abides upon you for rejecting the holy Testimony of the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 3:18,36).

You have a wrong interpretation of Matthew 5:17-20. Jesus purpose was to full fill the law. Having fulfilled the law he then abolished it. He abolished it for us. To be under the law is to be under condemnation. This is why Paul said to the Galatians, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21. The law will damn you to hell. "For as many as are under the law are under a curse: for it is written, cursed is everyone that does not do everything which is written in the book of the law to do them" Galatians 3:10. Do you keep the law? Do you do everything that is written in the book of the law?

 

[daqq]

You have a wrong interpretation of Matthew 5:17-20. Jesus purpose was to full fill the law. Having fulfilled the law he then abolished it. He abolished it for us. To be under the law is to be under condemnation. This is why Paul said to the Galatians, "Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Galatians 4:21. The law will damn you to hell. "For as many as are under the law are under a curse: for it is written, cursed is everyone that does not do everything which is written in the book of the law to do them" Galatians 3:10. Do you keep the law? Do you do everything that is written in the book of the law?

That is just more confused ramblings from one who does not understand what he reads. Paul speaks of the works of the Law which is the understanding of the Torah according to the flesh and the carnal mindset. Why can you not see the difference between supernal and spiritual Torah and the works of the Law which are of the flesh? Do you suppose you do not need to be circumcised? You do! And it is worse than you think because the true circumcision is of the heart, and therefore, if you do not have circumcision of the heart as taught in the Torah long before Paul came along; then you are certainly no better off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and in absolutely no way does your righteousness exceed theirs, no matter what you come online and proclaim to the world: and abolishing the Torah from your heart and mind only blinds you even more so then you were before you started any of this, (and perhaps that is the very reason why the veil still remains over your heart, mind, and eyes when you read the primary covenant, if you ever even do). The whole epistle makes the contrast between the Spirit and the flesh, the above and the below, Sarah -vs- Hagar, (O Egypt, great of flesh!), Isaac -vs- Ishmael, Horeb -vs- Sinai, Jerusalem above -vs- Jerusalem below, and so on and so on. You are perverting and wresting the writings of Paul for your own private interpretations.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Blind man leading blind men . . .

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Negative. Nor would he want it if he was wrong.

Fine! But you better not ever cut me slack if you think I'm wrong, then! No matter how difficult an argument it brings. I appreciate correction from the likes of men like you... who exalt Jesus and His Grace above all else!

So.... There!

 

[Robert Pate]

That is just more confused ramblings from one who does not understand what he reads. Paul speaks of the works of the Law which is the understanding of the Torah according to the flesh and the carnal mindset. Why can you not see the difference between supernal and spiritual Torah and the works of the Law which are of the flesh? Do you suppose you do not need to be circumcised? You do! And it is worse than you think because the true circumcision is of the heart, and therefore, if you do not have circumcision of the heart as taught in the Torah long before Paul came along; then you are certainly no better off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and in absolutely no way does your righteousness exceed theirs, no matter what you come online and proclaim to the world: and abolishing the Torah from your heart and mind only blinds you even more so then you were before you started any of this, (and perhaps that is the very reason why the veil still remains over your heart, mind, and eyes when you read the primary covenant, if you ever even do). The whole epistle makes the contrast between the Spirit and the flesh, the above and the below, Sarah -vs- Hagar, (O Egypt, great of flesh!), Isaac -vs- Ishmael, Horeb -vs- Sinai, Jerusalem above -vs- Jerusalem below, and so on and so on. You are perverting and wresting the writings of Paul for your own private interpretations.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Blind man leading blind men . . .

You are implying that Paul was blind? Paul was especially chosen by Jesus to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. And you have the nerve to say that Paul was blind. Paul had more insight into the Gospel than all of the other apostles put together. To discredit Paul is to discredit Jesus, who chose Paul to be an apostle. You have a serious unbelief problem.

 

[Nick M]

Fine!

So.... There!

Do you not realize I did not give him a hard time?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Do you not realize I did not give him a hard time?

I do. I realized it today when I went back. What do you want...? A blubbering apology?

Jk... I admit I misunderstood your use of Matthew 23.

Forgive me?