JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[daqq]

That's all you've been doing to me since round one, so stuff it, censored.
So you confess that you don't believe quote-unquote the master. The gates of hell, prevailed.

So sad.

Didache was first century, and confirms Matthew 28:19 (KJV) as legit, plus Peter's and Paul's Trinity references, plus John 1, plus Philippians and Colossians.... You have homonyms and improbable readings and inherent, insoluble ambiguity. Are you crazy? Most Unitarians are crazy, unless they admit they're Muslims, then they've got a chance at stability; I said a chance.

The teachings of the Master are personal and individual: the gates of hell have neither prevailed in my walk, nor in my seven congregations, nor in my little city that is set on the mountain of Elohim, (again, Matthew 5, that is, Matthew 5:14). As for you and your land that has nothing to do with my house or my fields. Again, you neither believe nor even understand the Testimony of the Master: go back and start all over, and leave out the traditions of your mother church and church fathers who are dead.

 

[daqq]

The teachings of the Master are personal and individual: the gates of hell have neither prevailed in my walk, nor in my seven congregations, nor in my little city that is set on the mountain of Elohim, (again, Matthew 5, that is, Matthew 5:14). As for you and your land that has nothing to do with my house or my fields. Again, you neither believe nor even understand the Testimony of the Master: go back and start all over, and leave out the traditions of your mother church and church fathers who are dead.

Also, Nihilo, that is one of the beautiful things about the teachings and doctrine of the Messiah, (once a person actually understands them), the Logos-Word has set me free from your fathers, your mother church institutions, your dogmas and erroneous creeds, and your highly esteemed traditions of men; which are abomination in the sight of Elohim, (Luke 16:15).

:sheep:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:1b
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: (NIV)


1. Some Trinitarians try to force this verse to “prove” the Trinity by what is known as the Granville Sharp Rule of Greek grammar. We have shown that this is not a valid proof of the Trinity (see Ephesians 5:5, “The Granville Sharp Rule”).

2. This verse is generally translated one of two ways: “Our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Revised Version, RSV, NIV, etc.) and “God and our Savior Jesus Christ (KJV). Although it is possible that the word “God” (Greek = theos) is here being used in its lesser sense, i.e., of a man with divine authority (see Hebrews 1:8), it is more likely that it is referring to the true God as distinct from Jesus Christ. This is certainly the way the context is leading, because the very next verse speaks of them separately.

Alford recognizes that two beings are referred to in the verse and writes, “Undoubtedly, as in Titus 2:13, in strict grammatical propriety, both “God” and “Savior” would be predicates of Jesus Christ. But here as there, considerations interpose, which seem to remove the strict grammatical rendering out of the range of probable meaning” [1]

3. There is absolutely no reason to force this verse to make Jesus Christ into God. It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one. Furthermore, it is through the righteousness of both God and Christ that we have received our precious faith. It was through God in that it was He who devised the plan of salvation and was righteous in His ways of making it available to us. It was through Christ in that by his righteous life he carried out the plan so that we can have what we now have. Both God and Christ had to be righteous in order for us to enjoy our current status in the faith, and we think the evidence is conclusive that they are both present in the verse.

Broughton and Southgate, p. 202

Buzzard, p. 129

Back to the list of “Verses Used to Support the Doctrine of the Trinity”


Endnotes:

1. One Trinitarian scholar who did recognize this delineation was E.W. Bullinger, whose book, The Giver And His Gifts, is footnoted in this book. Back to top

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/2-peter-1-1b

 

[Lon]

"We" :chuckle:

 

[freelight]

Being raised in Spirit.........

Being raised in Spirit.........

​

Here is what is found at the website for the Catholic Arian Church (the link in your post), when scrolling down on the left and clicking on "The Resurrection:"

Yes, the Arian Catholic Church holds to a spiritual resurrection of Jesus, and does not profess a necessity of belief in a literal physical resurrection. All that is essential (to recognize) is that Jesus was raised "in the Spirit" to God the Father (the heavenlies) and then made to have a place at the right hand of Power....since it is indeed 'God' that made Jesus both lord and Messiah, and given him all the powers that come with the name given. The Messiah-Son-Servant is forever subordinate to YHWH. 'God' is forever the head of 'Christ',...and Christ Jesus is forever the Angel of Great-Counsel, even as Michael....one who is like Elohim, but he is ever by revelation, the Messiah, the SON of Yah.

I do believe in the resurrection of Jesus in the Spirit, ascending into the glory of the Father, of which he was the outshining image of, since his divine generation or anything divine in him, is certainly of the Father, since the Father is the one and only Source, the Progenitor of all things and beings. The Father ever has primacy over all things and being as the unbegotten, immortal, infinite ONE YHWH.

All that is essential if you'd like to keep to Christian scripture and tradition is to accept that Jesus was raised into the heavens by God, and this can be interpreted spiritually, figuratively. Jesus was raised in the Spirit and ascended on high....Godward. He united with the 'I AM' and became one with Deity in God-consciousness, for in that sphere of unity, he could say with full realization, "I and the Father are one"....even as we can...when we unite to the Spirit of God, or 'Christ' within us. All language is symbolic,...only meanings, values, principles and knowledge on the inner subjective plane is what counts below the dressings of words. Only the Spirit of God in us is life, and the living principle or logos that leads, guides and teaches the soul. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'.

 

[daqq]

Yes, the Arian Catholic Church holds to a spiritual resurrection of Jesus, and does not profess a necessity of belief in a literal physical resurrection. All that is essential (to recognize) is that Jesus was raised "in the Spirit" to God the Father (the heavenlies) and then made to have a place at the right hand of Power....since it is indeed 'God' that made Jesus both lord and Messiah, and given him all the powers that come with the name given. The Messiah-Son-Servant is forever subordinate to YHWH. 'God' is forever the head of 'Christ',...and Christ Jesus is forever the Angel of Great-Counsel, even as Michael....one who is like Elohim, but he is ever by revelation, the Messiah, the SON of Yah.

I do believe in the resurrection of Jesus in the Spirit, ascending into the glory of the Father, of which he was the outshining image of, since his divine generation or anything divine in him, is certainly of the Father, since the Father is the one and only Source, the Progenitor of all things and beings. The Father ever has primacy over all things and being as the unbegotten, immortal, infinite ONE YHWH.

All that is essential if you'd like to keep to Christian scripture and tradition is to accept that Jesus was raised into the heavens by God, and this can be interpreted spiritually, figuratively. Jesus was raised in the Spirit and ascended on high....Godward. He united with the 'I AM' and became one with Deity in God-consciousness, for in that sphere of unity, he could say with full realization, "I and the Father are one"....even as we can...when we unite to the Spirit of God, or 'Christ' within us. All language is symbolic,...only meanings, values, principles and knowledge on the inner subjective plane is what counts below the dressings of words. Only the Spirit of God in us is life, and the living principle or logos that leads, guides and teaches the soul. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'.

According to prevailing anthropomorphic machinations the Messiah must have appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus in glorified human resurrected flesh instead of as a blinding white Light. And yet Paul did not eat his (resurrected) flesh to become one in him; so he broke the commandment of the Master which shall never pass away, (and of course that is not according to my understanding but according to the rabid anthropomorphites in the machinations of their own vain imaginations when you simply take their teachings at face value for what they actually say, lol).

 

[freelight]

According to prevailing anthropomorphic machinations the Messiah must have appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus in glorified human resurrected flesh instead of as a blinding white Light. And yet Paul did not eat his (resurrected) flesh to become one in him; so he broke the commandment of the Master which shall never pass away, (and of course that is not according to my understanding but according to the rabid anthropomorphites in the machinations of their own vain imaginations when you simply take their teachings at face value for what they actually say, lol).

All life comes from Spirit, the holy breath. We can all arise in the consciousness of 'God', the only context and living substance where life is lived, communicated, realized, known. Nothing exists outside of Consciousness, the one infinity.

I responded to Nihilo's second post to me about the 'resurrection' but it got lost in cyber space when the site was temporarily down from server overload - it was rather extensive too, covering many dimensions of the whole 'resurrection' motif. In any case, we may take a 2nd stab at it, as see what comes thru.

To Paul anyways, a mystic at heart, and a gnostic as well,.....all that mattered or that had eternal value was a 'new creation', and 'faith' working thru LOVE. All else is secondary or merely complimental to the new birth in Spirit, having 'Christ' fully formed in you.

As far as a carnal presentation or view of Jesus rising in a 'flesh body' being beamed up into heaven, well....thats a picture in mind. What happens inwardly as a personal religious experience or communion with YHWH...that is a subjective process of transformation, a 'translation' of 'being'. What happens to you while interfacing with-in the Christ-story, and processing Jesus journey thru 'faith' WITH him, co-participating in transformation,..this is what its all about, - the descriptions of birth, death, rebirth, ascension and all the dynamics are just facets of the translation in God that soul experiences.

The mystic must experience this within, the transformation is 'whole bodily',...it includes spirit, soul and body. It is holistic.

 

[KingdomRose]

I've been here since forever. You are welcome to go where ever you like.

I thought you said you were leaving. Dang, I'm disappointed !!

 

[KingdomRose]

No. How 'bout you just answer how you understand the Church plummeting into utter darkness and spiritual destitution right away, within the first generation, as the gates of hell not prevailing against her? Just give it a shot.

Is making the Lord equal with God (Jn5:18KJV Jn10:33KJV) blasphemy or not Daqq? It's His own Church that did it, and still does it.

Well, I had a nice post almost all completed, and my computer suddenly shut down!! TWICE!! I'll try again.

How did the Church plummet into utter darkness right away, within the first generation? A relatively easy question. I'll do this is segments so that I don't lose ALL of what I type. First of all, Jesus spoke often of ravenous wolves invading the flock, and to watch out for them (Matthew 7:13-23). They would even claim to be his followers!

 

[freelight]

Free from dogma................

Free from dogma................

I thought you said you were leaving. Dang, I'm disappointed !!

Someone has to police the threads and then report insurrections to Gestapo headquarters...where have you been?

We of different religious viewpoints, perspectives and points of view will be marginalized, condenscended, ostracized or exiled in one form or another by those holding themselves as the 'religious elite' or 'orthodox'. While 'tolerance' appears granted at one moment,...that tolerance may be modified or limited at any other moment, so you never know what to expect.

At least this is your own thread, and the OP stands and the biblical support for Unitarian theology seems to be pretty consistent, solid and all-inclusive, of the fundamental truth of there being One God who is Absolute, singular, indivisible, holy, besides whom there is no other 'Absolute'. This truth stands forever, no matter how you divide, personalize, differentiate, section or distinguish various personalities within a Godhead or not. EVER, Deity is One, while all multiples of person and creation spring from The ONE. - all things and beings, as individual expressions of Source,....are the Creator's offspring.

While J-dubs get such a bad rap,...and just about every free thinker is a 'cult-member' or freelance 'heretic',...at least they are more biblically accurate on some counts then some protestant denominations or self appointed bible thumpers :crackup: and even at this, I'm sure the one in mind is having a lil tissy fit just thinking about these observations, but they will keep coming, despite pot shots and put downs from from without. If someone does have truth, real truth, they will not feel threatened or stressed over the opinions of another, since truth itself needs no defense, but only a window or vessel to shine thru. - it needs no apologies, or apologists. Spirit is FREE. - but some wanna segregate it, brand it, box it, and then call their 'packaging'...the 'truth'. I say....'consider all,....and keep researching'. - as Jesus says,...keep asking, seeking, knocking. - its a continual gesture and action of opening heart and soul to hear the voice of truth at every moment.

 

[freelight]

Raising consciousness........

Raising consciousness........

There's the matter of the Resurrection, which Biblical Unitarians reject as fiction, "spiritualizing" it whatever that means.

I had a previous full response to your post which got lost. Here is a second go around. Not all biblical Unitarians reject the resurrection, even if some may 'spiritualize' the event,....some are very traditional-orthodox Christian on this matter. Its a fact that many modern progressive christians of different denominations take a more figurative/allegorical approach to scripture, even the 'virgin birth'....so this newer dispensation of progressive thought has been popularizing.

As in my former post on 'resurrection',...we can definitely say the Catholic Arian Church does teach Jesus resurrection in the Spirit, but this Arian church does NOT represent the whole of Unitarian Christianity, it being only one Arian branch or school of thought. This church while standing upon the seminal work and theology of Arius, has modern innovations as well since we've come along way since the 4th century.....so these modern innovations and progressive adaptations of knowledge-integration are to be expected.

While history and Scripture backs up that the Church for all time believed in and taught the Trinity,

This is certainly what Catholic apologetics would be spoon feeding you from within the walls of their own crib. Others beg to differ here and offer historical supports against this view. As I've share before, I dont think 'God' cares whether your 'Unitarian' or 'Trinitarian' because he looks at your heart and judges your character, although some theologies are more rational and useful than others.

even this evidence pales in comparison, to that which shows that the Church has always believed, taught, received and preached the Resurrection, as unequivocally and unambiguously and indisputably nonfiction.

The 'Resurrection' deserves its own thread, since this is dovetailing off topic here. You can only speculate, assume or choose to believe it happened, in whatever way you assume, but thats it. How this affects or is translated in your soul, is what matters....the subjective process, which is a transformation. Still, Jesus was raised in the Spirit, and this illustrates our own lifting of consciousness heavenward.

So you do not believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, nonfictionally? You only believe it was "spiritual" or only the soul, or some other explanation, other than the Resurrection is plain and simple nonfiction?

Theres a good measure of 'religious fiction' in many religious texts, the Bible not excluded. Which fictions, mythology, embellishments, interpolatioins or redactions do you enjoy from your 'scriptures'? - I dont need dogmas (unless they are true and universal propositions), while I can entertain, explore and coordinate any number of points of view or insights on any given subject at any moment. Reality is being translated thru multi-mediums simultaneously.....multidimensional

 

[Nihilo]

The teachings of the Master are personal and individual: the gates of hell have neither prevailed in my walk, nor in my seven congregations, nor in my little city that is set on the mountain of Elohim, (again, Matthew 5, that is, Matthew 5:14).

How very egocentric of you. Matthew 16:18 (KJV) is about more than just you.

As for you and your land that has nothing to do with my house or my fields. Again, you neither believe nor even understand the Testimony of the Master: go back and start all over, and leave out the traditions of your mother church and church fathers who are dead.

I believe in the communion of saints. lain: Heaven.

 

[Lon]

I thought you said you were leaving. Dang, I'm disappointed !!

Naw, same thread, you asked why I didn't leave the forum. Glad you enjoy the place, I came with the house.

You are welcome.
:wave: I'm off to better things, more interesting threads.

To Lon's post #437: Yay!!! How about being off to more interesting forums?

Memory getting old? Wishing hard?
I HAD left this thread, but your bringing it up drew me back. I think you like me better than you are letting on, for some reason :think:

 

[daqq]

How very egocentric of you. Matthew 16:18 (KJV) is about more than just you.

I noticed earlier that you are beginning to sound too much like the gestapo squad.
Have a nice life.

 

[KingdomRose]

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Besides Peter himself believing in and teaching the Trinity, as supreme pastor of the Church (Jn21:15-17KJV), all his successors have always taught the same. Always.

How does that prove that Peter believed in a Trinity? He was simply mentioning Jehovah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. He didn't ever suggest that they were all equal, nor is there any indication that he believed that the H.S. was a person.

 

[KingdomRose]

That translation has no foundation in Church history, and therefore, according to my Catholic faith, which is well-founded in both history and in Scripture, it is wrong. Besides, I don't see how you're clarifying anything to have one God, and then another God (the Word). That doesn't even make any sense. The Trinity teaching is that the Word and Son, is God, and is distinct from the Father, and the Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God, and He is distinct from both the Son, and from the Father. Each Person is God, and each Person is not either of the other Persons. Sameness, and distinction. Both of which are exemplified in Scripture. Therefore, ergo, God is the Trinity, and the Trinity is God.

Sorry, you aren't making any sense. You say that I "have one God and then ANOTHER God (the Word)" and that doesn't make any sense. But that is exactly what YOU believe. Two Gods. I never said that there are two Gods. The Word is A god---not God Almighty. YOU say that the Word is God Almighty. You are saying that we have two Gods. I believe that God Almighty is the Father, Jehovah. The Word, Jesus, is "a god," meaning that he is an important, powerful person. Human judges, angels, other people in authority, all were "gods" in the minds of 1st-century Jews and non-Jews.

 

[JudgeRightly]

How does that prove that Peter believed in a Trinity? He was simply mentioning Jehovah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. He didn't ever suggest that they were all equal, nor is there any indication that he believed that the H.S. was a person.

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” - Acts 5:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts5:3-4&version=NKJV

KR, can one lie to an object?

Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” - Acts 5:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts5:9&version=NKJV

Can one test an object?

No, you can only lie to and test a person.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sorry, you aren't making any sense. You say that I "have one God and then ANOTHER God (the Word)" and that doesn't make any sense. But that is exactly what YOU believe. Two Gods. I never said that there are two Gods. The Word is A god---not God Almighty. YOU say that the Word is God Almighty. You are saying that we have two Gods. I believe that God Almighty is the Father, Jehovah. The Word, Jesus, is "a god," meaning that he is an important, powerful person. Human judges, angels, other people in authority, all were "gods" in the minds of 1st-century Jews and non-Jews.

Seems pretty clear to me that the Word was God, not "a" god.

 

[KingdomRose]

Well, I had a nice post almost all completed, and my computer suddenly shut down!! TWICE!! I'll try again.

How did the Church plummet into utter darkness right away, within the first generation? A relatively easy question. I'll do this is segments so that I don't lose ALL of what I type. First of all, Jesus spoke often of ravenous wolves invading the flock, and to watch out for them (Matthew 7:13-23). They would even claim to be his followers!

Then I wrote that Jesus showed that the true followers of his would be overwhelmed and almost choked out by false Christians who would grow up like weeds over a period of time, but would be exposed during the "harvest" or "the end of the age." (Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43) This would start very early on, as Paul reiterated at Acts 20:29,30:

 

[KingdomRose]

"I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30)

That is very good evidence that the "church" that grew and grew through the centuries was actually a church of weeds, and it started very early---in Paul's day.