Jesus Is Not God

[KingdomRose]

Jesus has always been "second-in-command," and that's no small thing. Why, I wonder, do people insist on making him God? He never claimed to be; he always said he was the SON of God. If he was God, wouldn't he have clearly stated that? After all, anyone other than YHWH that claimed to be God would have been a totally new idea to the Jews, and they would've had to be told very clearly and precisely what the new facts were that they had to accept. Three persons in a "God-head" would be a completely new idea to them, after believing for centuries that YHWH was the one-and-only God.

When God said that He was "YHWH," He never even hinted that His identity included another person that would be known as Yeshua(Jesus)...actually two persons in one. YHWH (commonly known as "Jehovah") + Jesus = God? Throughout the Old Testament, Jehovah alone is God. There are indications that Jehovah had a Son, but never that the Son was equal to Himself. (E.g., Psalm 2.)

Was Jesus God, along with Jehovah? Not according to Jesus himself.

1)He said that he couldn't do anything of his own initiative. (God would do anything he set his mind to, so how could he be God?) (John 5:19)

2)He said he spoke whatever God told him to say. Would God have to wait for someone to tell him what to say? (John 12:49,50)

3)He had to REQUEST things of the Father. If he was God, he wouldn't have to ask anything of anyone. (John 14:16; 17:15)

4)He said that the Father was GREATER than he was. (Oh, and that meant even after he returned to heaven.) (John 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3)

5)He called the Father "my God." Oops! I haven't heard any trinitarian explain that one. (John 20:17) Does God have a God?

6)He said to God (the Father): "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) It's amazing how people try to explain that away!


I would like you to comment on these things, and please don't de-rail the subject by changing the subject. Take each item and if you disagree, explain why you disagree. And please....those people who want merely to cast aspersions, don't post anything here. I want a serious, respectful, thoughtful discussion. Thanks.

 

[keypurr]

Jesus Is Not God

Jesus has always been "second-in-command," and that's no small thing. Why, I wonder, do people insist on making him God? He never claimed to be; he always said he was the SON of God. If he was God, wouldn't he have clearly stated that? After all, anyone other than YHWH that claimed to be God would have been a totally new idea to the Jews, and they would've had to be told very clearly and precisely what the new facts were that they had to accept. Three persons in a "God-head" would be a completely new idea to them, after believing for centuries that YHWH was the one-and-only God.

When God said that He was "YHWH," He never even hinted that His identity included another person that would be known as Yeshua(Jesus)...actually two persons in one. YHWH (commonly known as "Jehovah") + Jesus = God? Throughout the Old Testament, Jehovah alone is God. There are indications that Jehovah had a Son, but never that the Son was equal to Himself. (E.g., Psalm 2.)

Was Jesus God, along with Jehovah? Not according to Jesus himself.

1)He said that he couldn't do anything of his own initiative. (God would do anything he set his mind to, so how could he be God?) (John 5:19)

2)He said he spoke whatever God told him to say. Would God have to wait for someone to tell him what to say? (John 12:49,50)

3)He had to REQUEST things of the Father. If he was God, he wouldn't have to ask anything of anyone. (John 14:16; 17:15)

4)He said that the Father was GREATER than he was. (Oh, and that meant even after he returned to heaven.) (John 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3)

5)He called the Father "my God." Oops! I haven't heard any trinitarian explain that one. (John 20:17) Does God have a God?

6)He said to God (the Father): "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) It's amazing how people try to explain that away!


I would like you to comment on these things, and please don't de-rail the subject by changing the subject. Take each item and if you disagree, explain why you disagree. And please....those people who want merely to cast aspersions, don't post anything here. I want a serious, respectful, thoughtful discussion. Thanks.

It goes deeper than most realize friend.

We need to look at the express image in Heb 1. God first and greatest creation/creature. A spirit like his creator. God was pleased that this spirit son contained his fullness. That means that this spirit son (logos) is a created form of God, a god. Only the Father is uncreated. So this spirit is a creature as told in Col 1:15. Jesus, the flesh son, is the body God prepared to hold his true son. Heb 10:5.

I think you already understand this post, but most will not.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

 

[keypurr]

Jesus Is Not God

Sorry double post

 

[oatmeal]

Jesus has always been "second-in-command," and that's no small thing. Why, I wonder, do people insist on making him God? He never claimed to be; he always said he was the SON of God. If he was God, wouldn't he have clearly stated that? After all, anyone other than YHWH that claimed to be God would have been a totally new idea to the Jews, and they would've had to be told very clearly and precisely what the new facts were that they had to accept. Three persons in a "God-head" would be a completely new idea to them, after believing for centuries that YHWH was the one-and-only God.

When God said that He was "YHWH," He never even hinted that His identity included another person that would be known as Yeshua(Jesus)...actually two persons in one. YHWH (commonly known as "Jehovah") + Jesus = God? Throughout the Old Testament, Jehovah alone is God. There are indications that Jehovah had a Son, but never that the Son was equal to Himself. (E.g., Psalm 2.)

Was Jesus God, along with Jehovah? Not according to Jesus himself.


5)He called the Father "my God." Oops! I haven't heard any trinitarian explain that one. (John 20:17) Does God have a God?

6)He said to God (the Father): "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) It's amazing how people try to explain that away!


I would like you to comment on these things, and please don't de-rail the subject by changing the subject. Take each item and if you disagree, explain why you disagree. And please....those people who want merely to cast aspersions, don't post anything here. I want a serious, respectful, thoughtful discussion. Thanks.

Thanks for the thread, since one third of the people on this website do not believe that Jesus is God, but rather the son of God, it is a good inquiry to find out why not and why.

1)He said that he couldn't do anything of his own initiative. (God would do anything he set his mind to, so how could he be God?) (John 5:19)

Jesus Christ imitated his God and Father even as we are told to do. Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers (mimites, imitators ) of God as dear (beloved, as in "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased) children

Jesus the anointed was anointed of God with the holy spirit from God, Acts 10:38 even so we are anointed, I John 2:27;4:13



2)He said he spoke whatever God told him to say. Would God have to wait for someone to tell him what to say? (John 12:49,50)

Jesus the anointed was a prophet like unto Moses who God raised up from among his brethren.

Jesus was raised up out from among his brethren to serve as a prophet of God.

Jesus Christ did what prophets do, they speak to God's people what God tells them to speak

Acts 3:22-23

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.


Deuteronomy 18:15-19

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.



Each of your points are easily expanded upon and soundly with the rightly divided scriptures.

3)He had to REQUEST things of the Father. If he was God, he wouldn't have to ask anything of anyone. (John 14:16; 17:15)

Jesus Christ was obedient to His Father and God who does according to the counsel of His own will.

Jesus Christ's meat was to do the will of the Father, not his own will.

4)He said that the Father was GREATER than he was. (Oh, and that meant even after he returned to heaven.) (John 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3)

And is still greater than Jesus Christ.

Jesus although highly exalted is not seated in God's throne but on the right hand of God. Why wouldn't a king have his son, a son he is pleased with, be seated on his right hand and rule along with him, as a son derived from the Father?

5)He called the Father "my God." Oops! I haven't heard any trinitarian explain that one. (John 20:17) Does God have a God?

God uses the word "elohim" and "theos" for a variety of entities, including false gods, and humans (including Jesus Christ)

The creator is "the God" but religion has tarnished and twisted God's use of the word "god" as a result of trying to support an unsupportable doctrine.

A definition that works well for all the various uses that God uses the word "god" for: a title or name given to one who has or has been given either perceived or genuine greater superiority and power than another

God has genuine greater superiority and power over all.

The men that God gave the responsibility to serve as judges in the OT have been given a greater genuine authority and power over others.

Idols false gods have been given perceived ...

Devil spirits have power, and do exercise that power and authority over others, thus they like to present themselves as god. But from God's point of view we are above them and have greater power than they do I John 4:4

etc....

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

 

[KingdomRose]

Thanks for the thread, since one third of the people on this website do not believe that Jesus is God, but rather the son of God, it is a good inquiry to find out why not and why.





Jesus Christ imitated his God and Father even as we are told to do. Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers (mimites, imitators ) of God as dear (beloved, as in "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased) children

Jesus the anointed was anointed of God with the holy spirit from God, Acts 10:38 even so we are anointed, I John 2:27;4:13



2)He said he spoke whatever God told him to say. Would God have to wait for someone to tell him what to say? (John 12:49,50)

Jesus the anointed was a prophet like unto Moses who God raised up from among his brethren.

Jesus was raised up out from among his brethren to serve as a prophet of God.

Jesus Christ did what prophets do, they speak to God's people what God tells them to speak

Acts 3:22-23

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.


Deuteronomy 18:15-19

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.



Each of your points are easily expanded upon and soundly with the rightly divided scriptures.




Jesus Christ was obedient to His Father and God who does according to the counsel of His own will.

Jesus Christ's meat was to do the will of the Father, not his own will.




And is still greater than Jesus Christ.

Jesus although highly exalted is not seated in God's throne but on the right hand of God. Why wouldn't a king have his son, a son he is pleased with, be seated on his right hand and rule along with him, as a son derived from the Father?




God uses the word "elohim" and "theos" for a variety of entities, including false gods, and humans (including Jesus Christ)

The creator is "the God" but religion has tarnished and twisted God's use of the word "god" as a result of trying to support an unsupportable doctrine.

A definition that works well for all the various uses that God uses the word "god" for: a title or name given to one who has or has been given either perceived or genuine greater superiority and power than another

God has genuine greater superiority and power over all.

The men that God gave the responsibility to serve as judges in the OT have been given a greater genuine authority and power over others.

Idols false gods have been given perceived ...

Devil spirits have power, and do exercise that power and authority over others, thus they like to present themselves as god. But from God's point of view we are above them and have greater power than they do I John 4:4

etc....

Excellent post, Oatmeal.

 

[KingdomRose]

Bs"d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”

Another excellent post. Thank you.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus is not God because you misinterpret the scriptures.

 

[KingdomRose]

Jesus is not God because you misinterpret the scriptures.

Precisely the opposite of what you say. You have taken the scriptures and turned them upside down and inside out to try and align them with your smoke-and-mirrors philosophy. I pray that others are not seduced by your errant teachings.

 

[Ktoyou]

I have seen threads like this before, yet to answer if this violates TOL rules, we will have to hear from Sherman, or Knight, as it seems the thread title is blaspheme, more-so than debate, to me?

 

[oatmeal]

Excellent post, Oatmeal.

Tnanks, there is much to learn yet about what scriptures teach regarding who God is and isn't and who the son of God is and isn't

 

[oatmeal]

I have seen threads like this before, yet to answer if this violates TOL rules, we will have to hear from Sherman, or Knight, as it seems the thread title is blaspheme, more-so than debate, to me?

Would it be blasphemous?

Do you have a scripture to support that?

Our would it be simply a case of mistaken identity?

For that matter, if the title of this thread was true, would your belief be blasphemous? o

Or would it simply be a case of mistaken identity?

 

[Ktoyou]

Would it be blasphemous?

Do you have a scripture to support that?

Our would it be simply a case of mistaken identity?

For that matter, if the title of this thread was true, would your belief be blasphemous? o

Or would it simply be a case of mistaken identity?

It is not Christian theology and is blasphemous to say Jesus is not God! It does not matter what scripture one quotes, saying Jesus is not God, is not part of the Christian religion.

As to whether the thread is allowed on TOL, I find the answer to that question to be somewhat vague.