Jesus is God !

[Ben Masada]

The MYSTERY that the Apostle Paul preached was revealed to him by Jesus Christ Himself.

Really! How come Jesus did not report this to his Apostles so that Paul be accepted by them? (Acts 9:26) Obviously, Paul was lying.

The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ at the Cross was much more than symbolic and was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Have you asked Paul? He was the one to be asked if the resurrection of Jesus was symbolic or not. Paul revealed that secret to his disciple Timothy that Jesus resurrected according to his gospel and obviously not the gospel of another. (2 Tim. 2:8)

Jesus Christ and the Cross was a perfect sacrifice and is now the only path to Salvation. Jesus Christ did die on the Cross for the sins of the world. This is the Gospel of the Grace of God, and those who reject what Paul preached are lost.

Do you think Jesus as a Jew would contradict the prophets of the Lord who said that no one can die for the sins of another? (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Of course it had to be only by faith that such a thing could be possible. No wonder Paul said that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight (aka understanding). (II Cor. 5:7)

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I wonder whom Paul received his gospel from because it has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus. Paul said that his "Christ" died for our sins according to the scriptures. That's definitely not true because, I have read the whole of the Scriptures Jesus always referred to as the Word of God and I have never found even a word about the death of Jesus according to the scriptures. Of course you must know that the NT did not exist yet. Obviously the reference was to the Tanach. Likewise, what scriptures did Jesus rise again on the third day if there was no NT yet? It's amazing!

 

[freelight]

New Age garbage. "The parts that we can twist into our new age garbage is true and the rest is false. The true parts are obvious. The parts we like are true, duh.". That's what it really is.

If you're frank with yourself,...you probably don't know what is true, but have just ACCEPTED some version, concept or doctrine of what is true (or what is the 'gospel') and put your faith in 'that', for whatever reason. Slapping a label on a concept you don't accept as 'new age' doesn't make it false or true,....just 'distinguished'

Truth can be both 'old' and 'new' age,...but these are all labels.





pj

 

[freelight]

According to what scriptures?

According to what scriptures?

I wonder whom Paul received his gospel from because it has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus. Paul said that his "Christ" died for our sins according to the scriptures. That's definitely not true because, I have read the whole of the Scriptures Jesus always referred to as the Word of God and I have never found even a word about the death of Jesus according to the scriptures. Of course you must know that the NT did not exist yet. Obviously the reference was to the Tanach. Likewise, what scriptures did Jesus rise again on the third day if there was no NT yet? It's amazing!

Yes,....lets see where the OT passages are that speak of the Messiah dying and rising again the THIRD day. Can anyone here supply them? Paul's claim was specific, assuming that somewhere in what he called 'the scriptures' this was revealed. While some passages in the OT are made to refer to Jesus as messianic prophesies, these are contested by orthodox Jews and others. If we assume Paul meaning more cryptic/gnostic/allegorical references to a Messiah dying and rising again the 3rd day, these of course can be more indirectly found in symbolic language and interpreted as such.




pj

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes,....lets see where the OT passages are that speak of the Messiah dying and rising again the THIRD day. Can anyone here supply them? Paul's claim was specific, assuming that somewhere in what he called 'the scriptures' this was revealed. While some passages in the OT are made to refer to Jesus as messianic prophesies, these are contested by orthodox Jews and others. If we assume Paul meaning more cryptic/gnostic/allegorical references to a Messiah dying and rising again the 3rd day, these of course can be more indirectly found in symbolic language and interpreted as such.

Gosh Freelight, that was refreshing to read. The first one to side with me as I agree with every thing you have said above. Come again!

 

[freelight]

Paul in the hot seat...........

Paul in the hot seat...........

Gosh Freelight, that was refreshing to read. The first one to side with me as I agree with every thing you have said above. Come again!

Hi Ben,

In our past dialogues, we do agree on quite a bit, as well as differ...since I'm a bit more eclectic in my approach and context of things, unless specified - I've added to some of your threads on Paul,....so my view of Paul is not a mystery, since his 'gospel' is problematic from a purely Jewish POV, no matter what evolution went into his doctrine heralded as 'his own gospel'. Also from a Gnostic POV, his doctrines hold in that kind of cosmology, which branch out on a more universal scale allegorically speaking. A more liberal spiritualist would certainly agree with some of the teaching of Paul, that are universally true, while probably disagreeing on some particulars of his.

But if you want to stick with the teachings of Jesus himself and his ORIGINAL APOSTLES,....centered at that time in Jerusalem led by James the Just....you might have some problems with Paul's teaching, as he was rejected by a good many there. This gets messy of course, since there are those who accept Paul wholly, some partially or reject him wholly....so quite some bandwidth there.

Portal Page on Paul here.


Injoy,



pj

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben,

In our past dialogues, we do agree on quite a bit, as well as differ...since I'm a bit more eclectic in my approach and context of things, unless specified - I've added to some of your threads on Paul,....so my view of Paul is not a mystery, since his 'gospel' is problematic from a purely Jewish POV, no matter what evolution went into his doctrine heralded as 'his own gospel'. Also from a Gnostic POV, his doctrines hold in that kind of cosmology, which branch out on a more universal scale allegorically speaking. A more liberal spiritualist would certainly agree with some of the teaching of Paul, that are universally true, while probably disagreeing on some particulars of his.

But if you want to stick with the teachings of Jesus himself and his ORIGINAL APOSTLES,....centered at that time in Jerusalem led by James the Just....you might have some problems with Paul's teaching, as he was rejected by a good many there. This gets messy of course, since there are those who accept Paul wholly, some partially or reject him wholly....so quite some bandwidth there.

Freelight, IMHO, Paul was intoxicated with Hellenism, the culture he was born in. I have read in the Catholic Encyclopedia that Paul was the son of a well-to-do Hellenistic couple educated in the Stoic Platonic University of Tarsus in the Cilicia. It was on those Hellenistic values that he was inspired to raise a religion which soon became antagonistic to Judaism.

 

[Daniel1611]

Yes,....lets see where the OT passages are that speak of the Messiah dying and rising again the THIRD day. Can anyone here supply them? Paul's claim was specific, assuming that somewhere in what he called 'the scriptures' this was revealed. While some passages in the OT are made to refer to Jesus as messianic prophesies, these are contested by orthodox Jews and others. If we assume Paul meaning more cryptic/gnostic/allegorical references to a Messiah dying and rising again the 3rd day, these of course can be more indirectly found in symbolic language and interpreted as such.




pj

Hosea 6

 

[freelight]

Freelight, IMHO, Paul was intoxicated with Hellenism, the culture he was born in. I have read in the Catholic Encyclopedia that Paul was the son of a well-to-do Hellenistic couple educated in the Stoic Platonic University of Tarsus in the Cilicia. It was on those Hellenistic values that he was inspired to raise a religion which soon became antagonistic to Judaism.

Yes, and Tarsus was a major center of pagan religious philosophy, mystery-religion motifs, Mithraism, etc. So, what Paul took from these influences is suggestable. Also, Paul's claim to be tutored by Gamaliel is questionable by some, and maybe just inserted to give support to Paul's ministry. If any one can provide proof that Paul was a student of Gamaliel,....do so.




pj

 

[freelight]

Hosea 6

Once again, pleading on some esoteric, allegorical or symbolic correlation. Can you specify where in Hosea 6 it refers to the Messiah dying for sins, then being raised the 3rd day? Remember,...specifically.




pj

 

[Daniel1611]

Once again, pleading on some esoteric, allegorical or symbolic correlation. Can you specify where in Hosea 6 it refers to the Messiah dying for sins, then being raised the 3rd day? Remember,...specifically.




pj

It says he revives the world on the third day. It could say literally "Jesus Christ will die for the world's sin and rise on the third day and on May 11, 2015 there will be a debate about it on TOL" and you would say that verse was added by Paul or something. So does it matter to you anyway?

 

[freelight]

Dont forget......

Dont forget......

It says he revives the world on the third day.

Figuratively speaking, possible....although it is referring to the people (Israel) being revived...this 'could' apply universally to the whole earth of course, and 'could' figuratively correlate to a Messiah reviving the world thru his 'resurrection'. Pretty 'figurative' here.

It could say literally "Jesus Christ will die for the world's sin and rise on the third day and on May 11, 2015 there will be a debate about it on TOL" and you would say that verse was added by Paul or something.

Lets not be so pessimistic

If referring to the OT, I don't think Paul could add or subtract any verses in the already existing Jewish scriptures, so his reference to "Jesus dying and being raised the 3rd day according to the scriptures" must refer to the over-all plan of the Messiah being the restoring agency of bringing new life to the people.

BTW, to orthodox Jews,...the Messiah has not yet come, since his arrival or presence is concurrent to the Messianic Age existing, since they are a simultaneous phenomena.

So does it matter to you anyway?

As a student of comparative religions, metaphysics and philosophy (and much more), of course things 'matter' in their own context, as far as they relate anything significant.

Its information, that can be related, interpreted or translated in various ways. Hence the interest of 'discussion' :idea: - remember,...TOL is for discussion.



pj

 

[Daniel1611]

There doesn't need to be a specific third day prophesy. Thru saw the sign of the prophet Jonah. Hosea 6 is the prophesy but even if it werent there Jesus is still the messiah.

 

[aikido7]

Jesus provoked many different emotions and reactions in others.

1. Some saw Jesus as God and said "Let's worship him."

2. Some saw Jesus as a great teacher in the company of the great Jewish prophets and said "Let's follow him."

3. Others were impressed because he did not "teach like the scribes" and said "Let's hear more about this wondrous man."

4. Some saw him as boring and said "I'm outta here."

5. And there were many who saw him as a threat to both the empire and the priestly class. And they said "Let's kill him."

Not everybody thinks alike--either in the ancient world or in the modern world.

 

[keypurr]

Revelations 3:12

 

[daqq]

Yes,....lets see where the OT passages are that speak of the Messiah dying and rising again the THIRD day. Can anyone here supply them? Paul's claim was specific, assuming that somewhere in what he called 'the scriptures' this was revealed. While some passages in the OT are made to refer to Jesus as messianic prophesies, these are contested by orthodox Jews and others. If we assume Paul meaning more cryptic/gnostic/allegorical references to a Messiah dying and rising again the 3rd day, these of course can be more indirectly found in symbolic language and interpreted as such.


pj

Perhaps you might start here:

Isaiah 46:10
10. Declaring the End from the Beginning, and from ancient times the things which are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure!

:sheep:

 

[freelight]

worms to the hook.......

worms to the hook.......

Perhaps you might start here:

Isaiah 46:10
10. Declaring the End from the Beginning, and from ancient times the things which are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure!

:sheep:

Hello daqq,

I've debated Daniel1611 on the so called 'third-day' resurrection claim of Paul as being found in the OT scriptures, which remains only some vague symbolic reference to who knows what, beyond the passage in Hosea, which is about the resurrection of a 'people', not necessarily a 'person',.....consider the context there.

My previous posts also stand for any serious students of truth or religion on the important subjects pertaining...especially on topic of the 'claim' or 'belief' that "Jesus is God'",.....which is just that. I'm quite familiar with a number of religious sources or texts that grant Jesus some measure of 'divinity', amid the more mundane reality of his humanity, and how one 'mixes' up or 'confounds' the two elements is as good any other potpourri of doctrine, that suits the suitor. As the resident eclectic here, I have no problem with people 'building their own theology',....write your own gospel,...live your own truth

Is. 46:10 doesn't necessarily address my observation or 'claim' that the Messiah will die for the world's sins and be raised THE THIRD DAY, (and this 'according to the scriptures'), since it would be a miracle if you could find one orthodox Jew who believes or claims such a thing. - we might add they know their own 'scriptures' better than gentiles or another religious cult (so we assume), and lay hold to foundational traditional doctrines based from their holy writings concerning their Messiah. It appears anyone can use the term "according to the scriptures" to bolster their message...but does it stand up to research?

So,....Is 46:10 says 'God' has planned out some things to occur, and can do anything he wants, because after all,....there is no greater power or will existing, except what human free will might modify, condition or alter, but that's another subject :mario: Heaven forbid we open too many cans of worms, as just one can be messy enough


Injoy!



pj

 

[daqq]

Hello daqq,

I've debated Daniel1611 on the so called 'third-day' resurrection claim of Paul as being found in the OT scriptures, which remains only some vague symbolic reference to who knows what, beyond the passage in Hosea, which is about the resurrection of a 'people', not necessarily a 'person',.....consider the context there.

My previous posts also stand for any serious students of truth or religion on the important subjects pertaining...especially on topic of the 'claim' or 'belief' that "Jesus is God'",.....which is just that. I'm quite familiar with a number of religious sources or texts that grant Jesus some measure of 'divinity', amid the more mundane reality of his humanity, and how one 'mixes' up or 'confounds' the two elements is as good any other potpourri of doctrine, that suits the suitor. As the resident eclectic here, I have no problem with people 'building their own theology',....write your own gospel,...live your own truth

Is. 46:10 doesn't necessarily address my observation or 'claim' that the Messiah will die for the world's sins and be raised THE THIRD DAY, (and this 'according to the scriptures'), since it would be a miracle if you could find one orthodox Jew who believes or claims such a thing. - we might add they know their own 'scriptures' better than gentiles or another religious cult (so we assume), and lay hold to foundational traditional doctrines based from their holy writings concerning their Messiah. It appears anyone can use the term "according to the scriptures" to bolster their message...but does it stand up to research?

So,....Is 46:10 says 'God' has planned out some things to occur, and can do anything he wants, because after all,....there is no greater power or will existing, except what human free will might modify, condition or alter, but that's another subject :mario: Heaven forbid we open too many cans of worms, as just one can be messy enough


Injoy!



pj

Hi freelight,
Yep, it's there, just keep reading past the exclamation point. The OP appears to believe Yeshua is Miykael so I figured why not two tsipporim with one precious stone? (sometimes when sheep jump rope they have something to hide). And who is the one with the hook? :crackup: :shut:

 

[freelight]

The Infinite includes all..............

The Infinite includes all..............

Hi freelight,

Yep, it's there, just keep reading past the exclamation point. The OP appears to believe Yeshua is Miykael so I figured why not two tsipporim with one precious stone? (sometimes when sheep jump rope they have something to hide). And who is the one with the hook? :crackup: :shut:

Salutations in the One who alone is 'Good'......

My former statements hold, - but regarding the OP here...I find it does little to prove Jesus is God, and if anything goes to support that Jesus is NOT 'God',...since there is only one singular Being and indivisible Deity that is GOOD (and the source thereof),...who happens to be the very 'God' and 'Father' of Jesus himself. This passage is a very poor 'proof-text' IMO...for the 'Jesus is God' folks.

Concerning B57's belief that Jesus is 'Michael',....that has its own 'perks', that without further detail and explanation...ventures on 'speculation'. However, its been awhile since I've refreshed myself on his perspective on Christology, so wont tackle it at this time. Enough has been shared already over proving that Jesus is God, and what kind of evidence even qualifies to make such so...but that depends on one's criteria of proof, amid so many personal opinions, bias and scriptural interpretations, that it gits perty messy after awhile.

As I've shared here amply before, if you want to be 'metaphysically correct' or else spiritually attuned to 'God' who is Pure SPIRIT,...then only 'God' is 'God',....and no other. Only that pure original Spirit-Being-Intelligence-Presence that is the Source and Sustainer of all that exists....is 'God'. Anything or any-being for that matter (the host of personalities springing forth from this Father-Mother Personality)....are but this God's offspring,....being individual expressions, creations, sons/daughters of 'God'. Taking this further, in a larger perspective of energy, form and consciousness,...we could say that WE are all 'GOD',...individual expressions/extensions of Spirit.




pj

 

[daqq]

Salutations in the One who alone is 'Good'......

My former statements hold, - but regarding the OP here...I find it does little to prove Jesus is God, and if anything goes to support that Jesus is NOT 'God',...since there is only one singular Being and indivisible Deity that is GOOD (and the source thereof),...who happens to be the very 'God' and 'Father' of Jesus himself. This passage is a very poor 'proof-text' IMO...for the 'Jesus is God' folks.

Concerning B57's belief that Jesus is 'Michael',....that has its own 'perks', that without further detail and explanation...ventures on 'speculation'. However, its been awhile since I've refreshed myself on his perspective on Christology, so wont tackle it at this time. Enough has been shared already over proving that Jesus is God, and what kind of evidence even qualifies to make such so...but that depends on one's criteria of proof, amid so many personal opinions, bias and scriptural interpretations, that it gits perty messy after awhile.

As I've shared here amply before, if you want to be 'metaphysically correct' or else spiritually attuned to 'God' who is Pure SPIRIT,...then only 'God' is 'God',....and no other. Only that pure original Spirit-Being-Intelligence-Presence that is the Source and Sustainer of all that exists....is 'God'. Anything or any-being for that matter (the host of personalities springing forth from this Father-Mother Personality)....are but this God's offspring,....being individual expressions, creations, sons/daughters of 'God'. Taking this further, in a larger perspective of energy, form and consciousness,...we could say that WE are all 'GOD',...individual expressions/extensions of Spirit.

pj

After all of that information in the first section I cannot fathom how you might think your former statements still hold water, (concerning where it is written that Messiah would rise in the third day according to the Scriptures). In addition to all of those things it is written that when the Father brings again the Prototokos (Yisrael) into the Land, He says: Let the heavens rejoice together with him, and let all the angels of Elohim bow in honor to him: let the nations rejoice with his people, and let all the angels of Elohim be strengthened in him; for the blood of the sons thereof he shall avenge, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him, and YHWH shall thoroughly cleanse the Land of His people." Therefore Elohim Yisrael is the only Sar strengthening his fellows, (cf. Daniel 10:21 YLT). Ah well, I tried, but we probably do agree on much though it seems there is some difference in our usage of the word "God". You appear to mean THE ONLY GOD, (which I say is the Father YHWH) while the Scripture uses "Elohim", (God) in a much broader application. I tried to rep you but it says I must spread some love around to others before reping you again! Anyways I once met someone else at another forum who used to greet with Namaste all the time; delightful person as I remember.

 

[StanJ]

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.