Jesus' Gospel vs Paul's Gospel

[popsthebuilder]

2 Timothy 3: 1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[God's Truth]

There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Jesus did not preach it. He left that up to the apostles.

I can hardly believe that you said Jesus did not teach it.

Jesus' words are Spirit and life.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.


Jesus taught how to get in him, how to be saved and have eternal life.

 

[God's Truth]

Pops, would you agree that many of the conflicts that divide the Christian Church today, including baptism, eternal security, "faith" vs "works + faith", all have both sides of their arguments rooted in differing scriptures?

(For example, James 2:24 vs Romans 4:5, Romans 8:37-39 vs 2 Peter 2:20-21, etc.)

In other words, are you aware that there are apparent conflicts between different scripture verses within the Bible?

You are confused about what works do save and what works do not save.

The works of the law that used to clean are the ceremonial/purification works.

You don't understand that.

Those works no longer save, they do nothing now for what saves, he cleans the sins you repent of doing.

Faith that Jesus' blood is what cleans now.

That does not mean no one has to obey anything anymore that God says.

It means we don't have to get circumcised, observe special days and sacrifice animals.

 

[God's Truth]

I agree, there are no contradictions. My question, however, is not "are there contradictions," my question is "do some verses seem to contradict on the surface?"



Again, my question is not "do they contradict" but "does it seem like they contradict, at least on the surface.



We will focus on the Bible as a whole, including the words spoken by Jesus and Paul.

You make contradictions to the Bible.

There is no other gospel.

There has always been only one way, and it is that we believe and obey God.

Satan didn't believe AND obey God, neither did the angels who followed him.

Adam and Eve did not believe AND obey God, neither did their son Cain.

All the people who were drowned did not believe and obey.

We always have to believe AND, AND...AND obey.

Faith alone is dead and does not save anyone.

Paul did not come and do away with God as we know Him.

Paul is misunderstood because he is speaking of no works, meaning no ceremonial works.

Peter says the unstable and unlearned think that Paul was saying only believe and not obey; then, Peter warns us to obey.

James says the foolish think that we only have to have faith and not obey.

See all of Chapter 3 in 2 Peter. After Peter says the unstable and unlearned misunderstand Paul, as saying we only have to believe---Peter WARNS us to OBEY.

See James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, and 24.

James says people are foolish for thinking we only have to believe. He says faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

Again, people misunderstand Paul, they think he is saying to just have faith without obedience and then miraculous things will happen to you. NONSENSE.

Paul is speaking about the ceremonial works no longer saving.

The ceremonial works were the works that the people had to do for over 1,600 years, but when Jesus came, he did the cleaning and justification.

We still have to OBEY, we just don't have to get circumcised.

 

[God's Truth]

The old ceremonial/purification works said that people must be cut off and or put to death for not doing the ceremonial/purification works.

However, Jesus cleans us now and the sins committed in the past does not mean one must be cut off and or put to death when they sinned certain sins. Jesus taught that anyone who repents to him of their sins can be forgiven.

We find mercy and forgiveness in the NEW LAW/NEW COVENANT that Jesus preached! Unlike what Robert Pate preaches when he says Jesus didn't preach the new gospel. AND, UNLIKE what all the faith alone people say, for they say Jesus did NOT come with grace. How can they say such a thing? Jesus forgave people without the shedding of blood of an animal. Jesus forgave people without them having to do a special external washing. Jesus didn't say people should be stoned to death. What are you doing? Why are you preaching against Jesus?

Why are you going against Jesus and fighting the truth?

 

[turbosixx]

James is saying that works are required for salvation, along with faith. Paul is saying that it is only faith that saves, and that if you do works, those works are as debt (Rom. 4:4).

I would suggest to you that Paul and James are talking about two different types of works. The key is the works Paul is talking about.

 

[God's Truth]

If someone wants to be saved, and they hear from a faith alone preacher that all they have to do is believe and do nothing else, then that person can get a false feeling of salvation.

This kind of saving must be accompanied with a 'talking oneself into' faith and assurance.

Just believe, just believe, surrender to it, just believe and do nothing, it doesn't have to do with anything you do except believe....that kind of preaching doesn't cut it for those who really want to KNOW God.

There are those who are told to just believe and they do and that is all they got.

It is hard to explain it to those who are satisfied with that type of gospel because they do not seem to understand at all the intimate power deep within when they do what Jesus says. The faith alone believers need others, many others, to keep their spirits up and in the faith alone doctrine.

The BIBLE tells us that the only way to KNOW GOD is to obey Him.

If faith alone believers do obey some things Paul preaches after their faith alone, they still go against the teachings of Jesus when he walked the earth being for EVERYONE. So I don't know how a faith alone preacher can feel right about themselves when they do that. How can anyone go against the Spirit and life given in the words taught by Jesus?

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

So then, faith alone also preaches against Jesus teachings, even if they claim they have much faith, even when they claim they are obedient to God after their claimed salvation.

This is my deep beliefs about it and welcome a discussion.

 

[glorydaz]

I can hardly believe that you said Jesus did not teach it.

Jesus taught how to get in him, how to be saved and have eternal life.

You are confused about what works do save and what works do not save.

You don't understand that.

You make contradictions to the Bible.

We always have to believe AND, AND...AND obey.

Faith alone is dead and does not save anyone.



James says people are foolish for thinking we only have to believe. He says faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

Again, people misunderstand Paul, they think he is saying to just have faith without obedience and then miraculous things will happen to you. NONSENSE.

If someone wants to be saved, and they hear from a faith alone preacher that all they have to do is believe and do nothing else, then that person can get a false feeling of salvation.


This is my deep beliefs about it and welcome a discussion.

The :troll: has arrived. Will anyone get a word in edgewise now?

Inquiring minds want to know. :think:

 

[God's Truth]

The :troll: has arrived. Will anyone get a word in edgewise now?

Inquiring minds want to know. :think:

I am glad to see that you are copying and posting things that I have said.

 

[jsanford108]

I think that this is a very good and civil discussion, pops and Judge.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[JudgeRightly]

I apologize for my absence in this thread as of late. On top of the fact that I have been busy with work, my phone has stopped sending me notifications (yet again) about new posts to threads I am subscribed to, this being one of them.

I will respond, though it may be a few more days before I can sit down and reply. I ask only for your patience and understanding. Thanks.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I apologize for my absence in this thread as of late. On top of the fact that I have been busy with work, my phone has stopped sending me notifications (yet again) about new posts to threads I am subscribed to, this being one of them.

I will respond, though it may be a few more days before I can sit down and reply. I ask only for your patience and understanding. Thanks.

We will continue by the will and time of GOD.

practicing patience never hurt anyone.

 

[popsthebuilder]

1 Peter 2: 24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[Bright Raven]

Galatians 1:11-12New International Version (NIV)

Paul Called by God
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Galatians 1:11-12New International Version (NIV)

Paul Called by God
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

All apostles were taught by Jesus.

 

[Right Divider]

All apostles were taught by Jesus.

But ONE received NEW information that was NOT made known before. Peter acknowledged this in 2nd Peter 3:15-16

2Pet 3:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:15) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (3:16) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. ​

NOTE CAREFULLY (since you usually don't) that Peter says "according to the wisdom given to HIM" and not US.

 

[Bright Raven]

All apostles were taught by Jesus.

That is not what the thread title implies and is why I quoted the verse.

 

[God's Truth]

But ONE received NEW information that was NOT made known before. Peter acknowledged this in 2nd Peter 3:15-16

2Pet 3:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:15) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (3:16) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. ​

NOTE CAREFULLY (since you usually don't) that Peter says "according to the wisdom given to HIM" and not US.

Peter said that because he was not there with Paul and Peter ALREADY HAD THE WISDOM.

 

[steko]

Peter said that because he was not there with Paul and Peter ALREADY HAD THE WISDOM.

From what point and onward did Peter have all the facts?

 

[Right Divider]

Peter said that because he was not there with Paul and Peter ALREADY HAD THE WISDOM.

Always twisting the scripture to fit your need to pervert it.