Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[SabathMoon]

Each Person of The Trinity has the same one Name.

You don't know what the name is, nor the case you are trying to refute. Jesus doesn't call himself father or holy spirit. The name of the father, and the son, and the holy spirit is 3 different names as well. The Father is YHWH, and the is JC, and the holy spirit is God. Or else Father is named God, and the holy spirit is YHWH. I say this because it doesn't use the particle te or the name of 3 in the greek.

Jesus is not given the name YHWH, God, Father, or holy spirit; and claims that he tried to seize the name of God are mistranslation bogusery.

And the greek kurios is not a equivalent to God. Kurios is anyone who owns property including god. He owns us all.

 

[Apple7]

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

Regarding your centerpiece, John 17.3, if you were even remotely familiar with Greek, then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.

This can be deduced from a study of the article with multiple substantives connected via kai.

 

[Apple7]

Jesus doesn't call himself father or holy spirit.

You just proved to us that you are utterly clueless as to what The Trinity even is.

Keep fighting your strawman...

 

[Apple7]

John 20:17 ,, go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

zzz...and?

God has always had a God - even in the OT.

You Trinity-denier peeps keep recycling the same scriptures that prove The Trinity.

Got any NEW material, by chance?

:chuckle:

 

[SabathMoon]

You just proved to us that you are utterly clueless as to what The Trinity even is.

Keep fighting your strawman...

Your the idolater, not me.

So your god has a split personality that can't forgive mankind without Jesus. It isn't my problem.

 

[Apple7]

Your the idolater, not me.

So your god has a split personality that can't forgive mankind without Jesus. It isn't my problem.

The Triune God has always forgiven His people.

Trouble is, most people don't think that they need to be....like you...

 

[way 2 go]

Not when Jesus so specifically clarified the point of ORIGIN, in contrast to the fact that Jesus WAS the one SPEAKING those commandments to them.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.
John 14:24He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Tell us, was Jesus telling the truth when he explained this????

yes Jesus was telling the truth when he explained that

if Jesus is not God then he is not speaking for God because what Jesus is saying would be blasphemous
if not for the fact that Jesus is God


Moses was speaking for God as a man


Jesus is speaking as God for God

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."



Jesus said my commandments not God's commandments
Jesus didn't say "thus saith the lord" instead he spoke from his authority as God and said my commandments.
and that would be blasphemous
if not for the fact that Jesus is God

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[SabathMoon]

The Triune God has always forgiven His people.

Trouble is, most people don't think that they need to be....like you...

Yes, the unitarian god forgives idolatry. Trouble is the trinity doctrine is still image-worship a.k.a. idolatry.

 

[Apple7]

And the greek kurios is not a equivalent to God. Kurios is anyone who owns property including god. He owns us all.

That would depend upon context.

If the passage in question quotes Yahweh from OT Hebrew, then that pretty well renders your lame assert as impotent...

 

[Apple7]

Yes, the unitarian god forgives idolatry.

A unitarian God does not exist.

Trouble is the trinity doctrine is still image-worship a.k.a. idolatry.

No.

Jesus is not an idol because He can walk, talk, see, hear, feel, etc....the exact opposite of what scripture refers to as idols.

 

[SabathMoon]

That would depend upon context.

If the passage in question quotes Yahweh from OT Hebrew, then that pretty well renders your lame assert as impotent...

You didn't deny that a kurios can be a human king. So anything statement claiming it to prove dietyhood is irrelevant without a context.

 

[SabathMoon]

A unitarian God does not exist.




No.

Jesus is not an idol because He can walk, talk, see, hear, feel, etc....the exact opposite of what scripture refers to as idols.

But pictures and models "of Jesus" are idols they are claimed to represent the god.

 

[Dartman]

Jesus specifically said he was God, so you are wrong. PERIOD!!

In John 8:58 Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am", invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God: "I Am" (Ex. 3:14).

You are incorrect.
1) Jesus MERELY used the GREEK phrase "ego eimi".... exactly like MANY other examples.
2) "I AM" is NEVER called "the personal name of God", rather Jehovah/YHVH Himself said His name is Jehovah/YHVH.
Ex 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
3) The LXX, which is a MUCH earlier translation of the OT into Greek, by HEBREW SCHOLARS uses the Greek phrase "O' ON".
4) The English translation of the LXX is;


And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye
say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.

His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself, so they "took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

1) News flash for you ..... THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND JESUS .... THEY MURDERED JESUS! Like usual, they falsely accused him.
2) Jesus NEVER said "Of COURSE I am making myself God"..... instead he CORRECTED THEM;
John 10:31-36 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law," I said, ye are gods"?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou, literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Absolutely correct.
As SOON as Thomas was convince that his God had raised his Lord from the dead, he praised THEM BOTH.

 

[Apple7]

You didn't deny that a kurios can be a human king. So anything statement claiming it to prove dietyhood is irrelevant without a context.

The meaning of 'kurios' is determined via context.

Any lexicon will show you this...

 

[Apple7]

But pictures and models "of Jesus" are idols they are claimed to represent the god.

According to Catholics.

I'm not Catholic.

Now what...?

 

[SabathMoon]

According to Catholics.

I'm not Catholic.

Now what...?

The definition of idolatry hasn't changed. Does the Catholic condemn idolatry? they embrace it.

 

[SabathMoon]

The meaning of 'kurios' is determined via context.

Any lexicon will show you this...

I guess we have no debate there. :dunce:

 

[Dartman]

zzz...and?

God has always had a God - even in the OT.

Predictable. More outrageous claims without a shred of support. Standard OP for trinitarian/oneness.

Got any NEW material, by chance?

Nope, I don't.

What I have is the ORIGINAL material .... it's trinitarians and oneness that base their beliefs on "new " material.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Jesus specifically said he was God, so you are wrong. PERIOD!!

In John 8:58 Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am", invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God: "I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself, so they "took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou, literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Trinity. If you do not know that then you do not know Jesus ORE God.

You are incorrect.......

I won't even waste space quoting the rest of that twisting of scriptures. I AM correct!! My position is the 2,000 year old position and dogmatic proclamation of Christianity, and it is still the belief of the three branches of Christianity today, Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic.

Denying the Divinity of Christ is heresy.

But pictures and models "of Jesus" are idols they are claimed to represent the god.

Artwork is artwork. Nothing more. Jesus was God, but he was also man and he walked the earth. Therefore, artwork representing Jesus is totally okay.

None of that has anything to do with fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man, two natures perfectly joined into one person.

The definition of idolatry hasn't changed. Does the Catholic condemn idolatry? they embrace it.

That is a lie from the bowels of hell.

From my thread: Graven Images
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?118689-Graven-Images

........The commandment about “graven images” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.” Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made? No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.”

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image” referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

 

[Dartman]

if Jesus is not God then he is not speaking for God because what Jesus is saying would be blasphemous

Hogwash.

Moses was speaking for God as a man
Ex 7:1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Jesus is speaking for God for as a man.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;