Greetings again SonOfCaleb,
Please reconsider the very verse that you use:
Luke 24:36-39 (KJV): 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:36-39 (NWT 2013): 36 While they were speaking of these things, he himself stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 37 But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit. 38 So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”
They thought that they had seen a Spirit, but you claim that Spirits are invisible. Also Jesus says “that it is I myself”, but JWs, unless they have changed their teaching, do not believe that the literal body of Jesus was resurrected, and that he could not show them his hands and feet that still had at that time some evidence of the crucifixion. Possibly we could discuss Peter’s quotation and exposition of Psalm 16:10 in Acts 2:31. Did Jesus' body corrupt?
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your explanation of your view of this, but please do not force your perspective on Acts 1:9-11 where it is silent. I believe that Jesus’ body was resurrected and changed into a Spirit or Spiritual body, a body that does not need air and food to survive, but is a visible body nonetheless. You seem to have a sharp divide between flesh and spirit together with visible and invisible.It doesnt need to explicitly state it. As heaven is a spiritual realm. Fleshly beings cannot enter heaven which is harmonius with what Jesus said in Luke 24:39. Therefore Jesus could only enter Heaven as a spirit.
Whether their vision was obscured by Jesus changing back into a spirit or by the cloud that obscured their vision is immaterial in my opinion. As Jesus didnt enter heaven as a fleshly human being. I believe you're placing too much emphasis on the cloud and missing the more pertient point.
Please reconsider the very verse that you use:
Luke 24:36-39 (KJV): 36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:36-39 (NWT 2013): 36 While they were speaking of these things, he himself stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 37 But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit. 38 So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”
They thought that they had seen a Spirit, but you claim that Spirits are invisible. Also Jesus says “that it is I myself”, but JWs, unless they have changed their teaching, do not believe that the literal body of Jesus was resurrected, and that he could not show them his hands and feet that still had at that time some evidence of the crucifixion. Possibly we could discuss Peter’s quotation and exposition of Psalm 16:10 in Acts 2:31. Did Jesus' body corrupt?
Again you claim that a Spirit does not have substance. How do you explain that the donkey was able to see the Angel on each occasion, but Balaam was blind to the Angel blocking their passage?There is no scripture that supports this viewpoint. No human apart from Jesus has entered Heaven so you do not know nor can you know or behold what a spiritual being looks like in spirit form. In fact when you consider the examples of Gideon or Balaam its clear that the spirits they eventually saw had to be in corporeal form in order for them to see them. The scriptures below prove the spirits were not discernable to them.
Numbers 22:30 tells us "Then Jehovah uncovered Baʹlaam’s eyes, and he saw Jehovah’s angel standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand". Balaam as you know was not able to see the Angel until the Angel materialised into a corporeal being and Jehovah allowed Balaam to see his angel.
Judges 6:21 "1 Then Jehovah’s angel stretched out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread, and fire flared up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Jehovah’s angel then vanished from his sight. 22 Gidʹe·on now realized that it was Jehovah’s angel". Gideon likewise had no clue he was talking to an Angel of Jehovah until the Angel disappeared from his sight. These verses prove as you have admitted that Angels must materialise or change into a corporeal form in order to be seen by human beings. And by the word 'materialise' i mean this only as an adjective. You seem to be looking for a deeper esoteric meaning..
Jesus’ body was resurrected and changed, not disposed of, or kept in a mausoleum like Lenin.Human beings are INHERENTLY mortal. Even perfect humans are as evidenced by Christs death. Only spirit beings can be made immortal. Hence why Paul attests to Jesus recieving the gift of immortality upon re-entering heaven. Jesus existed as a spirit in heaven when Paul wrote these words. His human body disposed of.
This is part of the difference in our overall view.There is no scripture in the Bible that supports this viewpoint. His immortality was only mentioned by the Apostles AFTER he was raised to heaven.
Again there is no scripture that supports this viewpoint. Even the faithful Angels are mortal beings. The once faithful Angels who rebelled prior to the flood are also mortal hence why their judgement and destruction is spoken of in Revelation. Immortality given by God is obviously a very very unique precious, and exemplary gift for distinguished individuals EG the annointed ones of the 144,000. To think that Jehovah would merely hand that out willy nilly when he hasnt even given immortality to the vast majority of the spirit beings in heaven who serve in his heavenly government is not only illogical its a viewpoint thats simply not harmonius with the bible.
You seem to ignore the detail of Isaiah 2:2-4 and many other prophecies. God’s judgements came on Judah and Jerusalem because they rejected and crucified Jesus and persecuted the Apostles. I am not sure if you have considered Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel chs. 37-39, Zechariah 14 to name a few.If literal Jerusalem was still important to God he wouldnt have abandoned it since 1AD nor allowed its total and finite destruction by the Roman armys in 70CE. The temple there is in ruins and hasnt been rebuilt. Literal Jerusalem is of no consequence to Gods will nor purpose for this Earth and humankind. Either way Jesus as a descendant of David is already enthroned in heaven. Jehovahs government is already established in heaven. That government rules exclusively from heaven as was always intended from Adams creation, the subjects of that kingdom being mankind below on Earth. In fact Paul in Galations refers to this heavenly government as the 'Jerusalem above'. Literal Jerusalem of old merely foreshadowing Gods kingdom in the heavens along with spiritual Israel and the Israel above.
How then is it the throne of David, as he will need to be there 2 Samuel 7:12-16. Peter says David had not ascended in his day, thus refuting immortal souls and we agree here. But JWs used to teach that none before John the Baptist will be among the 144,000 in heaven.Its in heaven. And will remain in heaven indefinitely.
I believe in the conversion of a large remnant of Israel at the return of Jesus. We could discuss this further, but this is sufficient for now.We believe ALL earthly governments will be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Therefore all current nation states and their governments will cease to exist once destroyed and Jesus rule is established on Earth from heaven. The current nation state of Israel, nor its location, nor the 'Jewish' people, nor literal Jerusalem have any significant to us doctrinally. The majority of Christendom believes that mankinds salvation is tied up in literal Israel. We do NOT believe this at all. Its self evident from the scriptures that literal Israel has zero bearing on Gods will. It was after all 'Israel' who put Jesus to death hence why Gods covenant with Israel ended upon Jesus death when the nation of Israel rejected Jesus and Israel and the temple were utterly destroyed in 70CE.
The 'Great Crowd' as spoken of in Revelation will inhabit the Earth as subjects of the kingdom. The 144,000 anointed ones will rule from heaven with Jesus for the millenium.
Kind regards
Trevor