Jason Troyer and Jo Scott Expose the Contradiction Between DNA and the Book of Mormon

[Mustard Seed]

Toast, I on this forum and many others at various times and places in the last century or so have soundly countered the validity of all your claims with respect to truth and the plausibility of our claims. Go on the search feature and spend some time looking through things under the search word "Mormon" and under user names like "Mustard Seed" or "King David" or even baggins. You bring up nothing new and nothing that hasn't been shown for the sorry excuse for 'counter points' that they are.

 

[Toast]

Guess I win then.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Guess I win then.

Win what? You win a place in BR with me on this issue of DNA and the LDS faith?

 

[Alma Allred]

Guess I win then.

So, you subscribe to the "plagiarism avalanche" theory of apologetics, assuming that if you throw out enough material (which you have cut and pasted without attribution) and if no one responds, you "win." If they do respond, you just cut and paste some more.

I asked you to demonstrate something from the Book of Mormon that contradicted teachings of the apostles. You posted a lot of quotes, (most not from the Book of Mormon) but didn't demonstrate any contradictions with apostolic teachings. You want to try that again? Unless you can provide one, you haven't "won" you haven't even joined the discussion.

Alma

 

[Toast]

If you do not want to see the obvious truth in the contradictions between mormonism and Christianity, thats your poblem. I'm not about to waste my life putting up with your distortions and finessing and glossing over of text in a battle royal. I'll leave that to people who have more patience than I.

 

[Toast]

And true, I did do alot of copying and pasting from a apologetics source, in this case, one of Josh McDowells books, but the points are still no less valid copied.

 

[Alma Allred]

And true, I did do alot of copying and pasting from a apologetics source, in this case, one of Josh McDowells books, but the points are still no less valid copied.

Ah, but they are less valid for several reasons. The first is because it isn't your source, so you can't vouch for its authenticity.

Secondly, you're not engaging anyone, you're simply the middleman in a discussion rather than a participant. If you're not using your perceptions and conclusions, you're just part of gossip. You might as well write, "I don't believe your theology because www.someoneelse.com has lots of information proving you're wrong." I'd be happy to discuss it with Josh McDowell, but he isn't available; but I'm not interested in dicussing his views through you.

Thirdly, if I do demonstrate a logical or factual error, you have no reason to stand behind it. It's like the time I demonstrated to Walter Martin a signficant factual error in one of his books. His reply was, "I didn't do the research on that part. If you have problems with it, you'll have to talk to the Bodines."

Fourth, you have no idea about the context of third hand quotes you provide and probably couldn't stand behind them if challenged. A good example of that is your citation of Orson Pratt's Works. You probably aren't aware that many of his works were condemned by the entire leadership of the LDS Church and he apologized for those teachings. (See James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.2, p.214-223)

Those of only some of the problems of plagiarism; but they demonstrate what a damper it places upon real communication.

Alma

 

[Toast]

Okay Alma, we'll do it your way. I'll just ask you two simple question. No matter what your personal beliefs are, isnt it true that LDS members believe they can become Gods and salvation lies in trusting in Joseph Smith? You happy now?

 

[Alma Allred]

Okay Alma, we'll do it your way. I'll just ask you two simple question. No matter what your personal beliefs are, isnt it true that LDS members believe they can become Gods and salvation lies in trusting in Joseph Smith? You happy now?

Yes, we believe in theosis, and so do some Evangelicals and many Eastern Orthodox Christians. Read http://www.bethel.edu/~rakrob/files/THEOSIS2.html for starters.

No, we don't believe that salvation lies in trusting Joseph Smith. Salvation was, is and is to come only in Jesus Christ. His is the only name given under heaven whereby anyone can be saved. And yes, that makes me very happy.

Alma

 

[Toast]

Alma, I know you probably have some weird and nonlogical justification why you believe The Bible teaches "theosis" ( you'll probably quote the figurative verse where Jesus says, "You are Gods", (Jesus was a Jew btw and believed the OT, which claims there is only one God and no other )), but you know very well The Bible does not teach that, nor does mainstream Christianity or Judaism, and only through some fringish twisting of the scripture can you come to that conclusion (probably in order so that The Bible will agree with mormonism). And through that teaching, you directly contradict The Bible, which makes out God to be the ultimate authority, in the past, the present, and the future, and you dishonor him making yourselves out to be possible gods.

 

[Toast]

Also Alma, would you please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt this quote suggest that mormons do believe salvation comes through Joseph Smith? If its a misquote, please show me how. Thanks.

"No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith ... If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth... then this knowledge is of the most vital importance to the entire world. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he can not enter the Kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 189-190).

 

[Alma Allred]

Also Alma, would you please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt this quote suggest that mormons do believe salvation comes through Joseph Smith? If its a misquote, please show me how. Thanks.

"No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith ... If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth... then this knowledge is of the most vital importance to the entire world. No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he can not enter the Kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 189-190).

Although it's claimed as a quote of Joseph Fielding Smith, the phrase "No salvation without accepting Joseph Smith" is a paragraph heading inserted by the editor of the book and isn't a quote of Smith. Since Mormons believe that children who die in infancy are all saved in the kingdom of God, Smith's comment could be taken as hyperbole, but I think there's a basis in fact for it. Mormons do believe that everyone must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins and be baptized by someone with authority from God. Since we believe that God gave that authority to Joseph Smith and he authorized others, you could conclude that we believe that unbaptized people cannot be saved. But that doesn't mean that the person who baptizes you saved you or that baptism saves you.

Did salvation come through Peter because he preached Jesus Christ? If Peter or other apostles had not preached at Pentecost, would the 3,000 have been saved or not? I think a case could be made that unless they heard the truth preached by Peter, they would not have been saved. Were they therefore saved by Peter? Of course not. They were saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation is the product of the atonement of Jesus Christ. The mode of delivery is preaching the word. The delivery is essential but it isn't the means of salvation. Similarly Joseph Smith was given the commission to deliver the message to mankind, but the means of salvation is always Jesus Christ.

Alma

 

[Servo]

Alma 11:5-19

Have any of the coins mentioned in the book of Mormon ever been found?

 

[Alma Allred]

Alma 11:5-19

Have any of the coins mentioned in the book of Mormon ever been found?

No "coins" are mentioned in the text, only units of measurement including pieces of gold and silver.

Alma

 

[Servo]

No "coins" are mentioned in the text, only units of measurement including pieces of gold and silver.

Alma

Ok, so have any of these "units of measurement" been found?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Call the show. Mon-Fri from 5 pm to 5:30 pm ET and again from 6 pm to 6:30 pm ET at 1-800-8Enyart.

With the atmosphere of the show I'd hardly trust simply calling in. I've listened to and called in to enough radio shows to know the unbalanced nature of the playing field.

Would either or both of these two be opposed to confronting me here on TOL? In a BR possibly?

 

[Alma Allred]

Ok, so have any of these "units of measurement" been found?

How would we know? The Spaniards gathered tons of silver and gold and melted it into ingots for shipment to Spain. Perhaps if they catalogued everything they destroyed we could tell.

Alma

 

[Mustard Seed]

Ok, so have any of these "units of measurement" been found?

If they were would you convert?

If not, why not?

 

[Servo]

If they were would you convert?

If not, why not?

I might think that maybe what was written was more credible if the items mentioned in the book actually existed at one point in time.

 

[Servo]

How would we know? The Spaniards gathered tons of silver and gold and melted it into ingots for shipment to Spain. Perhaps if they catalogued everything they destroyed we could tell.

Alma

Oh, I see. Glad they didn't do that with all of the Biblical coins.