It's all Greek to me - looking for a Greek language expert?

[tetelestai]

Hey Little Jerry.....are you a Cowboy's fan like your dad?

If so, I think you should convert to being a Steeler's fan. That would be a good response to some of your dad's posts (hahahaha). I live in Pittsburgh, and can help you.

If you're not a Cowboy's fan, then disregard this post, and be thankful you're not a Cowboys's fan like your dad.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Hey Little Jerry.....are you a Cowboy's fan like your dad?

If so, I think you should convert to being a Steeler's fan. That would be a good response to some of your dad's posts (hahahaha). I live in Pittsburgh, and can help you.

If you're not a Cowboy's fan, then disregard this post, and be thankful you're not a Cowboys's fan like your dad.

I'd like to know if jshugart can juggle as well as Jerry Shugart!

 

[Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov]

I’m not exactly sure what your personal definition of expert may happen to be, but I am a former Papyrologist/Codicologist, and I do hold Bachelor’s Degrees or higher in several ancient languages; including five dialects of Greek. Whether or not that suits your criteria is for you to decide. I am Jewish, and not chr-stian, but I will try my best to answer what I believe you’re asking from a completely academic perspective.

The verb - ἐράντισεν – erantisen, as found in verse 21, is the 3^rd person singular Aorist active indicative inflexion of the verb - ῥαντίζω– rhantizo, which means “to sprinkle;” therefore erantisen means “he had been sprinkling.”

In verse 22 the verb – καθαρίζεται – katharizetai, is the 3^rd person present passive indicative inflexion of the verb – καθαρίζω – katharizo, which means “to purify,” or “to cleanse;” therefore katharizetai can be “it is purified,” but more appropriately “it has been purified.”

The noun - αἱματεκχυσίας – haimatekchysias, is a compound noun made up of the noun - αἷμα – haima, which means “blood,” and the verb - ἐκχέω – ekcheo, which means “to disgorge,” “to effuse” (think about a firehose, or the spillway on a dam, or vomiting); it literally means “gushing of blood.” A pretty sickening thought actually.

The Koiné Greek of these two verses translates to:

“And the tabernacle, and all of the service vessels alike, he had sprinkled with the blood.”
“And according to the law, nearly all things are purified by blood; and without the gushing of blood, no forgiveness is happening.”

I am not chr-stian, I am Jewish, and I do not want to derail your thread, but the circumstance being referenced is the one time only purification ritual to prepare the Mish’kan for use. This had absolutely nothing to do with the forgiveness of anything.

Hope this helps.

 

[glorydaz]

(What I think will happen: to all the regulars that know my Dad. I'm betting he is going to wax long and hard on who knows what. But the what won't be with providing a source, or addressing that issue. He will try and redirect the conversation. And he won't answer any of the questions actually posted to him, those will go ignored, because he can't redirect as well if he is distracted. And does he ever actually answer anyones questions? I'm hoping it isn't just me he does that too.)

I see Jerry answering questions all the time. Many times the person doesn't want to hear the answer he gives, so they dismiss it. But the answer is there. Other times, I see what I'm seeing with your post...it's very unclear exactly what it is you want. I would hate to be the one who was trying to figure out exactly what you're asking. So far...none seem to get it. :idunno:

 

[Lon]

　The below chart is from a good software program that may help in the future. It is called the Greek Interlinear New Testament w/Strongs #'s

It is a free addition to a free program called E-Sword http://www.e-sword.net/ It is great for those who cannot read Greek.


Heb 9:22
　

και G2532 CONJ καί and

σχεδον G4975 ADV σχεδόν nigh

εν G1722 PREP ἔν in

αιματι G129 N-DSN αἷμα blood

παντα G3956 A-NPN πᾶς all

καθαριζεται G2511 V-PPI-3S καθαρίζω to cleanse

κατα G2596 PREP κατά down

τον G3588 T-ASM ὁ the

νομον G3551 N-ASM νόμος law

και G2532 CONJ καί and

χωρις G5565 ADV χωρίς at a space

αιματεκχυσιας G130 N-GSF αἱματεκχυσία an effusion of blood

ου G3756 PRT-N οὐ no, not

γινεται G1096 V-PNI-3S γίνομαι to cause to be

αφεσις G859 N-NSF ἄφεσις freedom

　
Heb 9:23
　

αναγκη G318 N-NSF ἀναγκή constraint

ουν G3767 CONJ οὖν certainly

τα G3588 T-APN ὁ the

μεν G3303 PRT μέν in fact

υποδειγματα G5262 N-APN ὑπόδειγμα an exhibit for imitation

των G3588 T-GPN ὁ the

εν G1722 PREP ἔν in

τοις G3588 T-DPM ὁ the

ουρανοις G3772 N-DPM οὐρανός the sky

τουτοις G5125 D-DPN οὗτος to these

καθαριζεσθαι G2511 V-PPN καθαρίζω to cleanse

αυτα G846 P-APN αὐτός he, she, it

δε G1161 CONJ δέ but

τα G3588 T-APN ὁ the

επουρανια G2032 A-APN ἐπουράνιος above the sky

κρειττοσιν G2909 A-DPF κρείττων stronger

θυσιαις G2378 N-DPF θυσία sacrifice

παρα G3844 PREP παρά near

ταυτας G3778 D-APF οὗτος the he

 

[Zeke]

Hello,

I am having a lively debate with my father about the meaning of a Greek text. Now I am not looking to argue with anyone here. All I'm doing is looking for someone who can take a Greek sentence and explain how the tense and structure is or could possible be.

Don't ask what verse, as that will just start a flame war. I'd prefer the Greek expert be Christian, so my father can not say I found an expert that comes from my own worldview and might be biased in my direction.

I am not looking for anything other than the truth, and as I know I can't read Greek, and my father doesn't know Greek, I would rather not have the blind leading the blind here, if you know what I mean.

Thank you

Revelation is the only teacher being a greek scholar doesnt matter one way or the other.

 

[daqq]

“And the tabernacle, and all of the service vessels alike, he had sprinkled with the blood.”
“And according to the law, nearly all things are purified by blood; and without the gushing of blood, no forgiveness is happening.”

Or, according to the context, which is cleansing or purification:

“And the tabernacle, and all of the service vessels alike, he had sprinkled with the blood.”
“And according to the law, nearly all things are purified by blood; and without the application of blood, there is no sending away, (remission).”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[FONT=&]I am not chr-stian, I am Jewish, and I do not want to derail your thread, but the circumstance being referenced is the one time only purification ritual to prepare the Mish’kan for use. This had absolutely nothing to do with the forgiveness of anything.[/FONT]

Perhaps you can tell us why you think that "blood" was essential to the Jewish worship under the Mosaic Covenant. After delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, the Lord brings them to Mount Sinai. There He warns them not to come near to Him. They must not even touch the base of the mountain:

"Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it. Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death" (Ex.19:12).​

Let us examine the amazing changes that result from "blood". First an altar was set up and burnt-offerings were offered, and then the blood of the covenant was sprinkled upon the people:

"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:8).​

With the blood the nation was set aside as the Lord's special people and "then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel...and upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink" (Ex.24:9,11). Then the Lord gives the command: "Let Me make them a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Ex.25:8).

Just the day before it would have been death if they would even touch the mount, but now they saw God, and they were at peace in His presence. In the day when the people were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant the nation of Israel was established as a holy people in covenant with God.

First of all, without the blood of the covenant the nation would not be in a covenant relationship with the Lord. And without that relationship then all of the different kinds of atonement under the Mosaic Covenant would not have been available to the chilren of Israel. So can we not understand that what is here is true?:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Heb.9:22).​

The LORD must have had some reason for stressing the importance of "blood" or "death" in His relationship with man.

What would you say is the reason for that?

Thanks!

 

[Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov]

A person, who apparently is your son, asked a question; I attempted to answer his question in the most civil manner possible, you're opinion doesn't matter to me.

 

[daqq]

The LORD must have had some reason for stressing the importance of "blood" or "death" in His relationship with man.

What would you say is the reason for that?

Egregious mistake: the Father does not ask for "death", (as you imagine it, being physical in meaning).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A person, who apparently is your son, asked a question; I attempted to answer his question in the most civil manner possible, you're opinion doesn't matter to me.

Sorry, I just thought that you might have an opinion about the necessity of "blood" in your religion.

Seems like this is a touchy subject among the children of Israel who deny what is written in the NT.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Egregious mistake: the Father does not ask for "death", (as you imagine it, being physical in meaning).

Was not a blood offering essential in regard to the new relationship between the LORD and the children of Israel?

What about what is said in the following passage in regard to what kind of offering was respected by the LORD?:

"And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Gen.4:3-5).​

 

[daqq]

Was not a blood offering essential in regard to the new relationship between the LORD and the children of Israel?

What about what is said in the following passage in regard to what kind of offering was respected by the LORD?:

"And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect" (Gen.4:3-5).​

Psalm 40:6, 7, 8
Psalm 50:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Psalm 51:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Hosea 14:1-2 KJV
Isaiah 1:10, 11, 12, 15
Isaiah 66:1, 2, 3
Jeremiah 7:21, 22, 23

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Psalm 40:6, 7, 8
Psalm 50:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Psalm 51:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Hosea 14:1-2 KJV
Isaiah 1:10, 11, 12, 15
Isaiah 66:1, 2, 3
Jeremiah 7:21, 22, 23

Perhaps you can tell us why you think that "blood" was essential to the Jewish worship under the Mosaic Covenant. After delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, the Lord brings them to Mount Sinai. There He warns them not to come near to Him. They must not even touch the base of the mountain:

"Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it. Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death" (Ex.19:12).​

Let us examine the amazing changes that result from "blood". First an altar was set up and burnt-offerings were offered, and then the blood of the covenant was sprinkled upon the people:

"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:8).​

With the blood the nation was set aside as the Lord's special people and "then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel...and upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink" (Ex.24:9,11). Then the Lord gives the command: "Let Me make them a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Ex.25:8).

Just the day before it would have been death if they would even touch the mount, but now they saw God, and they were at peace in His presence. In the day when the people were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant the nation of Israel was established as a holy people in covenant with God.

First of all, without the blood of the covenant the nation would not be in a covenant relationship with the Lord. And without that relationship then all of the different kinds of atonement under the Mosaic Covenant would not have been available to the chilren of Israel. So can we not understand that what is here is true?:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Heb.9:22).​

The LORD must have had some reason for stressing the importance of "blood" or "death" in His relationship with man.

What would you say is the reason for that?

 

[daqq]

Perhaps you can tell us why you think that "blood" was essential to the Jewish worship under the Mosaic Covenant. After delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, the Lord brings them to Mount Sinai. There He warns them not to come near to Him. They must not even touch the base of the mountain:

"Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it. Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death" (Ex.19:12).​

Let us examine the amazing changes that result from "blood". First an altar was set up and burnt-offerings were offered, and then the blood of the covenant was sprinkled upon the people:

"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:8).​

With the blood the nation was set aside as the Lord's special people and "then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel...and upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink" (Ex.24:9,11). Then the Lord gives the command: "Let Me make them a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Ex.25:8).

Just the day before it would have been death if they would even touch the mount, but now they saw God, and they were at peace in His presence. In the day when the people were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant the nation of Israel was established as a holy people in covenant with God.

First of all, without the blood of the covenant the nation would not be in a covenant relationship with the Lord. And without that relationship then all of the different kinds of atonement under the Mosaic Covenant would not have been available to the chilren of Israel. So can we not understand that what is here is true?:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Heb.9:22).​

The LORD must have had some reason for stressing the importance of "blood" or "death" in His relationship with man.

What would you say is the reason for that?

Perhaps you can tell me why you have essentially rejected all the scripture passages which I just quoted? Better yet I will tell you why: because you see all things according to the carnal eyes and mind of the flesh. The same veil which Paul speaks of in 2Cor 3:13-18 therefore also remains over your own heart, mind, and eyes, to this day when you read the primary covenant. And that veil is only done away through and in Messiah, that is to say, by way of his Testimony and Doctrine because he expounds the Torah in his Testimony provided in the Gospel accounts in parables, proverbs, sayings, idioms, and all his teachings. That Testimony also represents his blood, as has already been said, and therefore you must apply that Testimony to yourself and in all your doctrine or you do not have the atonement provided through Messiah. Walking according to the flesh means you have nothing and you will end up with even less.

 

[daqq]

Jeremiah 7:21-26 KJV
21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

Literal physical animal sacrifice results in blood guilt according to the scripture, (Psalm 51:14, Isaiah 1:15), and is the result of the imagination of an evil heart according to the above passage from Jeremiah, that is, the imagination of an evil heart that does not actually "hear" the Torah and rather walks according to belly, (just as the serpent was cursed to do from the beginning), which is the result of walking according to the lust of the flesh, (the lust to eat the cooked flesh of slain innocent creatures of Elohim).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremiah 7:21-26 KJV
21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you" (Jer.7:21-23; NIV).​

Of course the sacrifices and burnt offerings were according to the commandment of the LORD, as witnessed by His following words spoken when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt:

"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee" (Ex.20:24).​

Perhaps you can tell me why you have essentially rejected all the scripture passages which I just quoted? Better yet I will tell you why: because you see all things according to the carnal eyes and mind of the flesh.

It is you who sees things carnally or else you would understand the typological relationship between the OT sacrifices and the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Evidently you are blind to spiritual truths!

Literal physical animal sacrifice results in blood guilt according to the scripture, (Psalm 51:14, Isaiah 1:15), and is the result of the imagination of an evil heart according to the above passage from Jeremiah, that is, the imagination of an evil heart that does not actually "hear" the Torah and rather walks according to belly, (just as the serpent was cursed to do from the beginning), which is the result of walking according to the lust of the flesh, (the lust to eat the cooked flesh of slain innocent creatures of Elohim).

Since the LORD Himself ordered those animal sacrifices then if we are to believe your ideas He must have an evil heart.

 

[daqq]

"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you" (Jer.7:21-23; NIV).​

Of course the sacrifices and burnt offerings were according to the commandment of the LORD, as witnessed by His following words spoken when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt:

"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee" (Ex.20:24).​

It is you who sees things carnally or else you would understand the typological relationship between the OT sacrifices and the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Evidently you are blind to spiritual truths!



Since the LORD Himself ordered those animal sacrifices then if we are to believe your ideas He must have an evil heart.

So you went and found a more suitable translation to fit your taste buds? (the NIV), however that does not make it right and that is not what the original language says or means. Even Paul teaches you what animals and their sacrifices truly pertain to, and that is man, O man:

1 Corinthians 9:8-10 KJV
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Does Elohim take care for oxen? or does He not say this altogether for our sakes? For our sakes no doubt this is written! (Deut 25:4). And he likewise speaks immediately of spiritual things in the same context quoted above: therefore it is not me who sees these things carnally but you because you neither understand Paul nor the Master who teaches these things in the Gospel accounts; which is no doubt one of the places where Paul gets this teaching from, (the Gospel of Luke, see Luke 13:15,16, 14:3,4,5). Likewise the prophets teach the same things as even the prophet Ezekiel speaks in the same manner, (Eze 39:17,18,19,20), and so likewise does the author of the Apocalypse where he quotes from the same passage of Ezekiel, (Rev 19:17,18). When your heart turns back toward the Father, like a prodigal son, perhaps then you will see: for there will be a great celebration in that day, yea, even the fatted calf will be slain, (Luke 15:23, ("all of them fatlings of Bashan", lol)). But as for now it is not like these supernal things can be explained to you while you are chowing down on a meat-lovers pizza; for your desire for that meat-lovers pizza has clouded your judgment when it comes to what the scripture actually teaches. :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you went and found a more suitable translation to fit your taste buds? (the NIV), however that does not make it right and that is not what the original language says or means.

Of course you made no mention of the fact the sacrifices and burnt offerings were according to the commandment of the LORD, as witnessed by His following words spoken when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt:

"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee" (Ex.20:24).​

Do you deny that the animal sacrifices found in the OT were according to the commandment of the LORD? You said:

Literal physical animal sacrifice results in blood guilt according to the scripture, (Psalm 51:14, Isaiah 1:15), and is the result of the imagination of an evil heart according to the above passage from Jeremiah, that is, the imagination of an evil heart that does not actually "hear" the Torah and rather walks according to belly, (just as the serpent was cursed to do from the beginning), which is the result of walking according to the lust of the flesh, (the lust to eat the cooked flesh of slain innocent creatures of Elohim).

According to your ideas since the LORD gave the commandment in regard to the animal sacrifices then He must have an evil heart!

Instead of admitting that you blundered you continue to try to defend your totally discredited ideas.

 

[jshugart]

Hey Little Jerry.....are you a Cowboy's fan like your dad?

If so, I think you should convert to being a Steeler's fan. That would be a good response to some of your dad's posts (hahahaha). I live in Pittsburgh, and can help you.

If you're not a Cowboy's fan, then disregard this post, and be thankful you're not a Cowboys's fan like your dad.

It skipped a generation, My oldest is a Dallas fan. I used to be an Oakland fan before I gave up football all together.