ISRAEL IS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE BELIEVERS

[Ben Masada]

Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;

What is not made by hands? Except for the Universe that was caused to exist by the Lord Himself, all else in the world is made by hands.

that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Jesus himself made us quite sure about that when he forbade his disciples to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles. Have you ever read about that in Matthew 10:5,6?

But now in Christ Jesus ye that were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

The blood of Jesus had nothing to do with approaching man to God. What approaches man to God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Regarding the wall of partition, Jesus broke nothing; he rather added a few more bricks unto it when he forbade to take his gospel to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5,6)

God made certain covenantal promises to the Jewish people. In verse 12, the word covenants is plural because he is dealing with the four unconditional, eternal covenants God has made with the Jewish people: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. God's blessings are mediated by these four covenants. He also points out that God made a fifth covenant with the Jewish people, but unlike the other four, the Mosaic Covenant, which contains the Mosaic Law, was conditional and temporary. Among the purposes of the Mosaic Law, the purpose he deals with here was to serve as the middle wall of partition to keep Gentiles as Gentiles away from enjoying the spiritual blessings of the Jewish covenants.

All covenants established between God and men were and still are conditional to obedience of the Law. Nothing can be unconditional between God and man because of the attribute of Freewill. Man must agree with the terms of any covenant. The Jews agree; the Gentiles don't.

As long as the Mosaic Law was in force, if a Gentile wished to partake of the covenantal promises and blessings, he would have to undergo conversion to Mosaic Judaism, be circumcised, take upon himself the obligations of the Law, and live like a Jew had to live under the Law. So Gentiles as proselytes to Mosaic Judaism could benefit, but not Gentiles as Gentiles.

The "Mosaic" Law is still in force. Many times throughout the Tanach reference is made to the Decalogue as being God's Law and Mosaic Law without distinction between them. If one must insist for a distinction, it is found in the fact that the Mosaic Law includes the rituals. Jesus himself spoke of God's Law and the Mosaic Law without distinction when he said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Among the accomplishments of the death of the Messiah is that this middle wall of partition…the law of commandments was broken down. As Paul states it elsewhere, “the Law was rendered inoperative.”

According to whom, Paul? That's Replacement Theology. Besides, the Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[Totton Linnet]

Reformers believe God keeps all His promises; both temporal and spiritual. You have no basis to claim otherwise.

We also understand that many of the temporal fulfillments point to and lead to spiritual conclusions.

The "church" consists of all souls saved by the grace of God . . O.T. Believers as well as N.T. Believers, so many saints that enjoyed earthly promises also knew the spiritual fulfillments that came therefrom. . Abraham being the best example.

never the less there are promises God has made to Israel which have not yet come to pass, this is one of the ways that we know that God is going to restore Israel

 

[Nang]

never the less there are promises God has made to Israel which have not yet come to pass, this is one of the ways that we know that God is going to restore Israel

List them, my dear, and we can discuss . . .

 

[Totton Linnet]

# N'wye 273

If your theology has sticky out bits it is a sure sign that your theology is wrong. That is to say there are contradictions. Right doctrines agree with all other right doctrines, as a whole it should fit as smoothly as a glove fits the hand

I'll gi' ya just one but I could gi' ya a hundred.

You just said that God is finished with Israel as a bloodline. Paul says "what shall we say then have they stumbled so as to fall? GOD FORBID" that is Paul's strongest expression.

See just apply Paul's teaching in Ro.11. to the grace theology.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them that fell severity, but toward thee goodness if thou continue in His goodness otherwise thou also shalt be cut off"

We KNOW how the Armninian will use such a verse. They will use it as a threat that we may lose our salvation. It is the same way with the Galatians when Paul cries to those who had been saved under his ministry "if thou hast submitted to circumcision thou art cut off from Christ" The Arminian will point to it and say they had lost their salvation.

We know that is not true nor can be

So what does this "cut off" mean? in both uses. You cain't say that with the church it means one thing but with the Jews it means something different...you cain't be a Free Gracer with the church but an Arminian with the Jews.

It means that we are or would be cut off from all the attendant blessings and benefits of Christ. Not only in scripture do we see folks but we see them in the churches, they occupy the seats towards the back, folks who we know are saved, they have the testimony, the root of the matter, but they are so unblest.

They have lost their joy, they no longer walk close to the Lord like they did. Prayer life is shrivelled up, they no longer read the bible with appetite and hunger...they are in a measure cut off from Christ.

But they's still saved. they have stumbled but have they fallen? GOD FORBID.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

List them, my dear, and we can discuss . . .

Amazing that anyone would consider there to be anything unfulfilled in Christ except the physical Second Advent.

I guess the dust of the ground of a parcel of real estate is more "literal" than the authentic humanity of our Lord, which was the dust of the ground... NOW ASCENDED AND GLORIFIED.

That everlasting cosmological dirt will get ya every time, I tell ya. But, but, but... It's so r-e-e-e-a-a-a-l.

The knowledge for the tree of good and evil was physical senses knowledge (da'ath). Gotta see and touch it for it to be literal to them. Wrong tree.

Dispensationalism is Naturalistic Tangiblism. Empiricism. Postitivism. Subjectivism. It could never have gained any traction before the (19th) century of the cults.

 

[Totton Linnet]

# Nang 283

That Israel would enlarge his borders from the Sinai to the Euphrates, that in the latter days Israel will be the highest mountain.

That the ends of the earth shall be their heritage

That the kings of the earth would come and bow down to them and that the peoples of the world would flock to Jerusalem and say "come let us go unto the house of the God of Jacob and learn His ways

And nations will no longer rise against nations nor will they study war any more.

They will beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid.

When are these things to happen?

 

[Totton Linnet]

I will be back later

 

[Nang]

# Nang 283

That Israel would enlarge his borders from the Sinai to the Euphrates,

This is a temporal promise, fulfilled during the days of Joshua. Joshua 21:43-45

The rest of the promises are prophecies of the Incarnation and Kingdom rule of Jesus Christ; the spiritual "Israel of God." Galatians 6:16

that in the latter days Israel will be the highest mountain.

Mount Zion prefigured Christ's Kingdom, as promised in Isaiah 2:2-3, 11:9, 18:3-7, 25:6-10; Micah 4:1-2

That the ends of the earth shall be their heritage

Spiritual promise realized by individual Jews through faith in the Messiah. Ezekiel 17:22-24

That the kings of the earth would come and bow down to them and that the peoples of the world would flock to Jerusalem and say "come let us go unto the house of the God of Jacob and learn His ways

Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Philippians 2:10

And nations will no longer rise against nations nor will they study war any more.

They will beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid.

Isaiah 18:7; Revelation chapters 21 & 22

When are these things to happen?

All the spiritual promises were fulfilled when Christ came in flesh, died, and resurrected bodily. Being Amillennial, I believe all is realized by the church body here and now, for Christ reigns at the right hand of God, forever. And Jesus Christ is the heritage of His church at large. Hebrews 8:6-13

Christians (Jews and Gentiles) have received all these spiritual promises, in Christ, under the New Covenant promises. To claim that these promises are earthly and temporal, and are meant only for national Israel to inherit at some imaginary time in the future . . actually robs Christ's body of believers of their present and everlasting heritage in Him.

I really do not think any dispie realizes how bad and wrong that insistence that these promises are for national Israelites alone, proves to be.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This is a temporal promise, fulfilled during the days of Joshua. Joshua 21:43-45

The rest of the promises are prophecies of the Incarnation and Kingdom rule of Jesus Christ; the spiritual "Israel of God." Galatians 6:16

Mount Zion prefigured Christ's Kingdom, as promised in Isaiah 2:2-3, 11:9, 18:3-7, 25:6-10; Micah 4:1-2

Spiritual promise realized by individual Jews through faith in the Messiah. Ezekiel 17:22-24

Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Philippians 2:10

Isaiah 18:7; Revelation chapters 21 & 22

All the spiritual promises were fulfilled when Christ came in flesh, died, and resurrected bodily. Being Amillennial, I believe all is realized by the church body here and now, for Christ reigns at the right hand of God, forever. And Jesus Christ is the heritage of His church at large. Hebrews 8:6-13

Christians (Jews and Gentiles) have received all these spiritual promises, in Christ, under the New Covenant promises. To claim that these promises are earthly and temporal, and are meant only for national Israel to inherit at some imaginary time in the future . . actually robs Christ's body of believers of their present and everlasting heritage in Him.

I really do not think any dispie realizes how bad and wrong that insistence that these promises are for national Israelites alone, proves to be.

As Judaizers, they're blinded. Elevating temporal things above non-temporal things as "literal".

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yes this is what you do, the promise to enlarge Israel from Sinai to Euphrates came centuries after Joshua and they never did expand to the River Euphrates...so your answer is rubbish.

Then you spiritualise the other as though God were a snake oil salesman and promise much but not be able to deliver.

Perhaps He will come to us and say "I promised thus and so but you have not done good [how would we be able to deny it?] so I have found yet another people and will transfer all those promises to them"

Intojoy has listed dozens of promises of future blessing and restoration God made to Israel, Tams has listed some, I've given some.

But Paul you can never worm out of, N'wyes attempt was pathetic

I say then have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid but through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them be the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

The whole chapter speaks of the acceptance and receiving of those who had fallen and those who were diminished....


You do yourselves no favours in arguing against Paul.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Paul never speaks of the church replacing Israel, the olive tree was always theirs and we the wild olive have been graffed into their olive.

We have been made co-heirs and fellow citizens of their commonwealth

 

[Nang]

Yes this is what you do, the promise to enlarge Israel from Sinai to Euphrates came centuries after Joshua and they never did expand to the River Euphrates...so your answer is rubbish.

Scripture tells us that "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers." Joshua 21:43

Whether the tribes extended as far as the River Euphrates during their settlement in Joshua's day, or according to the land boundaries outlined in Exodus 34, does not negate this declaration of God's own word, declaring the promise fulfilled. National Israels' boundaries were in constant flux until the final exile, so the biblical answer to this can hardly be called "rubbish."

Then you spiritualise the other as though God were a snake oil salesman and promise much but not be able to deliver.

I testify that God has delivered all these promises. I did so using Scripture. No "snake-oil" tactics were employed.

Perhaps He will come to us and say "I promised thus and so but you have not done good [how would we be able to deny it?] so I have found yet another people and will transfer all those promises to them"

Belief in the New Covenant promises, fulfilled for each and every believer, is not "Replacement Theology."

Intojoy has listed dozens of promises of future blessing and restoration God made to Israel, Tams has listed some, I've given some.

But Paul you can never worm out of, N'wyes attempt was pathetic

I will take Northwye's scholarly usage of Holy Scripture way before any persons' listed above, any day.

I say then have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid but through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them be the riches of the Gentiles how much more their fullness?

The whole chapter speaks of the acceptance and receiving of those who had fallen and those who were diminished....

Please note that in my presentation of the argument, I refer to "National" Israel, who fell into disfavor with God. Paul taught that only a remnant of this fallen nation would be received, according to grace and election. Romans 11:7

You do yourselves no favours in arguing against Paul.

I do not argue against Paul. I argue against dispies who pervert Paul's clear teachings.

 

[Nang]

Paul never speaks of the church replacing Israel,

Neither do I . . .

the olive tree was always theirs and we the wild olive have been graffed into their olive.

The Olive Tree branches (whether "natural" or "wild") belong to the Root, who is God Himself.

I understand the Olive Tree as representing the invisible covenant "branches" (faithful believers) that are mixed with faithless visible branches, that when proven to be blind hypocrites and unholy, are broken off. The significance of the Olive Tree represents only the faithful, who truly are part of the "root and fatness" of Christ, and fit to be His witness. Romans 11:15-32

We have been made co-heirs and fellow citizens of their commonwealth

National Israel is no commonwealth of the Root and Vine of Jesus Christ . . only a remnant of Jews are co-heirs with the Gentiles in His church body of believers, and only a remnant of Gentiles called out of all the nations, together with them, make up the church body of Christ . . all according to His particular saving grace and election.

 

[intojoy]

I will be back later

Hope not

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Scripture tells us that "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers." Joshua 21:43

Whether the tribes extended as far as the River Euphrates during their settlement in Joshua's day, or according to the land boundaries outlined in Exodus 34, does not negate this declaration of God's own word, declaring the promise fulfilled. National Israels' boundaries were in constant flux until the final exile, so the biblical answer to this can hardly be called "rubbish."



I testify that God has delivered all these promises. I did so using Scripture. No "snake-oil" tactics were employed.



Belief in the New Covenant promises, fulfilled for each and every believer, is not "Replacement Theology."



I will take Northwye's scholarly usage of Holy Scripture way before any persons' listed above, any day.



Please note that in my presentation of the argument, I refer to "National" Israel, who fell into disfavor with God. Paul taught that only a remnant of this fallen nation would be received, according to grace and election. Romans 11:7




I do not argue against Paul. I argue against dispies who pervert Paul's clear teachings.

Isn't it amazing that Dispensational eschatology and hermeneutics escaped EVERY theologian, historian, philologist, linguist, and exegete for 18 centuries?

There must be something new under the sun. Oh, wait............

 

[Interplanner]

Neither do I . . .



The Olive Tree branches (whether "natural" or "wild") belong to the Root, who is God Himself.

I understand the Olive Tree as representing the invisible covenant "branches" (faithful believers) that are mixed with faithless visible branches, that when proven to be blind hypocrites and unholy, are broken off. The significance of the Olive Tree represents only the faithful, who truly are part of the "root and fatness" of Christ, and fit to be His witness. Romans 11:15-32



National Israel is no commonwealth of the Root and Vine of Jesus Christ . . only a remnant of Jews are co-heirs with the Gentiles in His church body of believers, and only a remnant of Gentiles called out of all the nations, together with them, make up the church body of Christ . . all according to His particular saving grace and election.

But if you have to have faith and show the fruits of faith, then you have replaced those who don't, as in the vineyard parable of Mt 21.

 

[intojoy]

Oh, look. No Replacement Theology.

I guess that's a strawman after all.

Transference Theolgy

 

[intojoy]

Romans 11:25-26: For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in you own conceits, that a hardening in part has befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved. Paul does not want Gentile believers to be ignorant about two things. First, the hardening of Israel is partial because there are still Jewish people coming to believe in the Messiahship of Jesus. Secondly, this hardening of Israel is temporary, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. The Greek word for fulness means a “set number.” God has a set number of Gentiles He intends to bring into the Body. He has not revealed what that set number is, therefore, the Church is to continue to witness and to share until that set number is reached. At that point, the program ends and that is essentially when the Rapture will occur. At that point, God will begin to deal with Israel again until all Israel shall be saved. Isaiah 49 has already prophesied that at that time He will restore all the people to the Land and He will restore the whole Land to the people. This does not mean that all Jews of all time will be saved, but all Jews of a specific period of time, which is following the fullness of the Gentiles. According to Zechariah 13:5-8, two thirds of the Jewish population will die in the Tribulation, and one third will survive. The entire one third that survives will all come to saving faith; this is the all Israel that shall be saved. So, the first reason for Gentile salvation, to call out from among the Gentiles a people for His Name, will ultimately lead to Israel's national salvation once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[intojoy]

I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an
apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. The second reason for Gentile salvation is to provoke Jews to jealously. Paul begins with the question in verse 11: Did they stumble that they might fall? The Greek word for fall means “to fall irrevocably,” so as never to be able to rise again. Earlier, in Romans 9:30-33, Paul said that Israel did stumble. Now the question is, “Did they stumble for the purpose of falling irrevocably?” The answer comes quickly: God forbid. In the Greek, this is the strongest way of saying “No.” It is the strongest Greek negation. Literally , it means “May it never be!” Rather, by means of Israel's stumbling, salvation is come unto the Gentiles, but the purpose of Gentile salvation here is to provoke the Jews to jealously.

 

[intojoy]

In accordance with Deuteronomy 32:8-9, both reasons for Gentile salvation are connected with God's plan and program for the Jewish people. The first reason is to take out from among the Gentiles a people for His Name, which will ultimately lead to Israel's national salvation when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The second reason for Gentile salvation is to provoke Jews to jealousy, which will lead to the present day Remnant's salvation, as Jewish people become believers and become members of the Israel of God today.