ECT Israel is not the BOC

[oatmeal]

God had three basic categories of people.

I Corinthians 10:32

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

None, that is a negative way of saying an all inclusive meaning.

None.

Who is this "none" include?

1. Jews, or rather Judeans

2. Gentiles

3. The church of God, ie, Christians, those who have done Romans 10:9, thus have received the gift of salvation/eternal life

Judeans are not Christians, Gentiles are not Christians, Judeans are not Gentiles

Granted, scripture at times refers to those in the church of God as Judeans or Gentiles, but when read accurately, it is not referring to the present state of those people but from what group they were before they became part of the church of God.

 

[tetelestai]

WHEN????
WHERE????
Give me a year frame that happened, and where on the globe it happened?

They were mixed into every nation.

 

[God's Truth]

One of the many things to discuss that distinguishes the Church from Israel is the promise of earthly land.


Was the Church ever promised their own earthly land?
No.
But Israel was.
Was the Church ever cast out of their earthly land for unfaithfulness to be restored again later?
No.
But Israel was.
Was the Church ever split into two separate bodies that would later be united in the same earthly land again?
No.
But Israel was.

The earthly land will be on the new earth.

The chosen Israelites are in the body of Christ.

Those not in Christ will not ever be saved when Jesus comes again.

When Jesus walked the earth, he taught the Jews to be in him, and he taught that he would also be in them. Being 'in' Jesus is being in the body of Christ.

 

[northwye]

All Israel that is saved in Romans 11: 26 has to be everyone - regardless of their DNA - who are of the elect of Christ. It is one of the church theologies - the one controlling the large evangelical denominations, Christian Zionism - which separates the multitude of the people of the chosen bloodline from all others. That church theology then postulates - without specific authority from scripture - that God now has two peoples, All Israel and the Church (with a capital C). In that church theology, are those of the chosen physical bloodline who are the elect a part of Israel or a part of the Church? That separation in the New Covenant of the chosen physical bloodline elect creates problems for the church theology because of several scriptures, including Galatians 3. Romans 10: 12 says that separation is false. Galatians 3 implies that in the New Covenant there is no longer a physical bloodline from Abraham which determines who is part of a chosen people.

 

[Interplanner]

I think the misunderstanding here may go back to 'those who bless you will be blessed; those who curse you will be cursed" in Genesis.

The question being: did he mean the race or did he mean those who had faith? They are entirely different declarations. The 'race' route is not found in the NT; the 'faith' route is entirely consistent with the NT, specifically with Hebrews 11.

 

[jamie]

When does this happen?

It's already happened. There was a time when the sun never set on Ephraim's empire.

 

[God's Truth]

All Israel that is saved in Romans 11: 26 has to be everyone - regardless of their DNA - who are of the elect of Christ. It is one of the church theologies - the one controlling the large evangelical denominations, Christian Zionism - which separates the multitude of the people of the chosen bloodline from all others. That church theology then postulates - without specific authority from scripture - that God now has two peoples, All Israel and the Church (with a capital C). In that church theology, are those of the chosen physical bloodline who are the elect a part of Israel or a part of the Church? That separation in the New Covenant of the chosen physical bloodline elect creates problems for the church theology because of several scriptures, including Galatians 3. Romans 10: 12 says that separation is false. Galatians 3 implies that in the New Covenant there is no longer a physical bloodline from Abraham which determines who is part of a chosen people.

Excellent points.

 

[Tambora]

They were mixed into every nation.

Gen 48:19 does not say they (Ephraim's descendants) would become mixed with a multitude of nations, but that they themselves would become a multitude of nations.
And it also does not say every nation.
Quit adding to scripture what it does not say.

All 12 tribes (both northern and southern kingdoms) were scattered throughout the world, but only one of those tribes was prophesied to become a multitude of nations.
Manasseh was of the northern kingdom, but they are not said to become a multitude of nations, and neither are any of the other tribes of the northern kingdom, but Ephraim only.
The fact that Ephraim is said to be greater than his brother Manasseh shows that they are considered separately, not together.
Gen 48:19 tells us that Ephraim and Manasseh would be great, but Ephraim would be greater than Manasseh.
Plus the fact not none of the other sons are mentioned at all.

 

[Tambora]

One of the many things to discuss that distinguishes the Church from Israel is the promise of earthly land.


Was the Church ever promised their own earthly land?
No.
But Israel was.
Was the Church ever cast out of their earthly land for unfaithfulness to be restored again later?
No.
But Israel was.
Was the Church ever split into two separate bodies that would later be united in the same earthly land again?
No.
But Israel was.

The earthly land will be on the new earth.

The chosen Israelites are in the body of Christ.

Those not in Christ will not ever be saved when Jesus comes again.

When Jesus walked the earth, he taught the Jews to be in him, and he taught that he would also be in them. Being 'in' Jesus is being in the body of Christ.

What are you trying to say????
Are you trying to say that the answers to the questions above is "yes" instead of "no"??????

 

[Tambora]

hmm,never once have I ask an mid Acts and them discern an race in scripture but today I must be Ephraim each time I ask you you choke.

What do you mean by "race"?
I mean, Jacob and Esau had the exact same parentage, but are separated as to their national identity.

Genesis 25:23 KJV
(23) And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

 

[tetelestai]

Gen 48:19 does not say they (Ephraim's descendants) would become mixed with a multitude of nations, but that they themselves would become a multitude of nations.

Tam, Tam, Tam....

(Hosea 7:8) "Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over.

 

[tetelestai]

What do you mean by "race"?
I mean, Jacob and Esau had the exact same parentage, but are separated as to their national identity.

Genesis 25:23 KJV
(23) And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

That's good.

Now if you can put two and two together, you should be able to see what Paul meant in Romans 11:25

(Rom 11:25 YLT) For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

Since you appear to be hung up on the words "multitude of nations", Young's gives a better translation:

(Gen 48:19 YLT) And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'

Maybe this will help:

"The Hebrew word goi is a collective noun meaning nation or sometimes a collective body of people. But it has been translated into English may different ways. The word occurs 557 times in the Old Testament. The Authorized Version of the Bible translates it gentile 30 times; heathen 142 times; nation 373 times; people 11 times; another once. But the American Standard Version cuts the occurrence of gentile from 30 to 9 times, and then shows in the footnotes of 5 of those 9 times that the word nations should have been used.

Of course the word nation is not always an exact equivalent term because there is too much of the political significance attached to it. But it is much better than the word gentile and some of our best translators prefer the word nations. This is also shown by the way the Revised Version eliminates the word gentiles." SOURCE

 

[tetelestai]

Moreover, when we get to the New Testament:

"The same thing is true of the Greek word ethnos. It occurs 164 times in the New Testament. In the Authorized Version it is translated gentiles 93 times; heathen 5 times; nation or nations 64 times; and people twice. In the American Standard Revised Version it is gentiles 96 times in the text and 7 times in the footnotes, making 103 occurrences altogether. But in the footnotes it is corrected 15 times to read nations, making the final count 88. So not only the Hebrew word goi but also the Greek word ethnos has been translated to read nations more than any other word.

Though the word gentiles and the word heathen are used many times in the Bible, we must face the facts that there are no Hebrew or Greek words that would demand this translation."

 

[Tambora]

The earthly land will be on the new earth.

The chosen Israelites are in the body of Christ.

Those not in Christ will not ever be saved when Jesus comes again.

When Jesus walked the earth, he taught the Jews to be in him, and he taught that he would also be in them. Being 'in' Jesus is being in the body of Christ.

Tam, Tam, Tam....

(Hosea 7:8) "Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over.

Tet ,Tet, Tet ....
All 12 tribes were scattered to other nations.
You seem to just focus on the northern kingdom being scattered, but they both were.
And Gen 48:19 is not about the northern or southern kingdom, but about one person's descendants becoming a multitude of nations.
And that one person is Ephraim to the exclusion of all the other sons.

 

[Danoh]

A concept in Scripture often missed is that at times, the word "nations" refers to a division of a same people within "a nation."

We see this concept in the following....

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

This that follows is also the concept of one nation within another; both being the same people physically.

Matthew 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Who was this "nation" He was asserting God would be replacing Israel's spiritual rulers - the Scribes and the Pharisees - with; out of their own people, or out of "a nation" from within their "nation"?

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

My point?

That just as in Genesis 17 and Genesis 25, there are times in Scripture where the plural "nations" refers to a division of a same people within the singular "nation."

What allows seeing these distinctions is seeking out during one's studies in The Word what generic principle and or principles: towards their possible use as general rules of thumb or guidelines one can then better study things out from; one thing or another in Scripture is often pointing to, and or basing one thing or another on.

 

[tetelestai]

Tet ,Tet, Tet ....
All 12 tribes were scattered to other nations.
You seem to just focus on the northern kingdom being scattered, but they both were.

Nope.

The Jews were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years, but they returned to Jerusalem.

The Jews who lived in other countries prior to Jesus were never out of covenant with God. Those Jews made the required pilgrimages to Jerusalem three times a year. Only the 10 tribes were out of covenant with God.

And Gen 48:19 is not about the northern or southern kingdom, but about one person's descendants becoming a multitude of nations.

Nope

Gen 48:19 is about the Northern Nation, the House of Israel, NOT the Jews or the House of Judah.

That's why Ezekiel says the stick of Ephraim would be joined with the stick of Judah.

And that one person is Ephraim to the exclusion of all the other sons.

You forgot Manasseh.

 

[Tambora]

Since you appear to be hung up on the words "multitude of nations", Young's gives a better translation:

(Gen 48:19 YLT) And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'

Ummm, his translation STILL says it was only the son, Ephraim, whose descendants would become a multitude of nations,
It does not say Manasseh would or that any of the other sons would.

Stop trying to make it say otherwise.

 

[tetelestai]

Ummm, his translation STILL says it was only the son, Ephraim, whose descendants would become a multitude of nations,
It does not say Manasseh would or that any of the other sons would.

Stop trying to make it say otherwise.

LOL....Why did Ezekiel say it would be the stick of Ephraim that would be joined to the stick of Judah?

You do know that the Benjaminites were part of Judah?

 

[tetelestai]

My point?

Read your whole post, and have no idea what your point is.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I think the misunderstanding here may go back to 'those who bless you will be blessed; those who curse you will be cursed" in Genesis.

The question being: did he mean the race or did he mean those who had faith? They are entirely different declarations. The 'race' route is not found in the NT; the 'faith' route is entirely consistent with the NT, specifically with Hebrews 11.

Acts 10
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.


22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.


IP vs Holy Bible


I choose Holy Bible