glassjester
Well-known member
Well if (as you said) determination and effort are what it takes to overcome disadvantage, then there is no white privilege. White people don't have a monopoly on effort.
Is White Privilege Real?
- Thread starter glassjester
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Well if (as you said) determination and effort are what it takes to overcome disadvantage, then there is no white privilege. White people don't have a monopoly on effort.
Of course, though they likewise don't bear the weight of historical discrimination.
glassjester
Well-known member
Does historical discrimination account for the differences between races in SAT scores or percentage of fatherless homes?
Lon
Well-known member
Conversely, I think we all do. The Irish Catholic, for instance has gone through some of this. It didn't matter if he/she was white. Most of us don't have inheritance. The spoiled kids spent and spend what they don't appreciate and so their kids often don't benefit either. I guess I'm saying I 'think' we are all really in the same boat...more or less, I realize there is disparity, not sure 1) if it is all bad nor 2) it is necessary. That said, my generosity is absolutely about helping anybody. I'm just not sure we can legislate it without strong-arming and causing harm to the very thing we wanted in the first place. -Lon
Inevitably
glassjester
Well-known member
Would you agree that black people in America faced more discrimination prior to the civil rights movement than today?
Yes.
Would you likewise agree that the discrimination which brought about the civil rights movement is still reflected in our current fight for social justice?
glassjester
Well-known member
Then fatherlessness is not due to discrimination. It's at a higher rate today, than it was pre-civil rights era.
Well that's the question of the thread, isn't it?
There were specific systems in place several generations ago that targeted black people. Now? Nope.
There are several contributing factors...many, if not directly, then indirectly stem from discrimination
Thier legacy endures.
glassjester
Well-known member
I welcome your evidence, should you care to produce it.
Saying some can overcome an advantage isn't saying most can or that everyone with that advantage will fail to utilize it or work as hard.
And that's before you consider the question of how many places there are at the plenty table.
I agree, but they don't have to. They only have to have the advantage and the ratio.
Look at it this way. You have one hundred people in a room. 12 of them are black and 63 of them are whites with that privilege. For the sake of argument lets say twenty percent of both groups are slackers. Now we have (rounding) 10 blacks and 50 whites vying for the same seats at that table. Now let's say ten percent of those are exceptional in talent, will be hard to keep out of the winners circle. That means 1 black and 5 whites are grabbing the brass ring out of hand, leaving 9 blacks and 45 whites in the lesser group whose efforts will be highly competitive. So whites begin with a pretty hefty likelihood of finding the limited remaining seats of power. And there will be a gradation of degree of ability to make that seat which will inherently work against the outlier and for the entrenched via that ratio.
So you can see where the odds rest, provided the playing field is fair, meaning there's no element among the power structure tilting the field. Unfortunately, we also know that's not the case, that systematic discrimination has been the history of our nation and that we've had to enact laws and even alter our Constitution to combat it.
When that still existing problem is reflected even subtly within the hiring and empowerment structure it takes those hard odds and few seats and makes advancement, beyond the few who are hard to deny, a long shot. Which means you'll see it, but it won't approach the rule.
glassjester
Well-known member
Right, but that's just because of (and proportional to) the difference in the white and black population. You wouldn't expect it to be 50/50, right?
Alright, so what systematic discrimination is happening now? Or are you saying that the disparities in crime, SAT scores, and fatherlessness are all residual effects?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
so you're admitting that this phantom advantage can be overcome by some but not all
if some choose behaviors and choices that they know will make it less likely for themselves to overcome these "advantages", isn't that their choice?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
apparently, there's still some "element among the power structure tilting the field"
buckets of popcorn later, we still don't know what that is :idunno:
glassjester
Well-known member
Or is it only a choice when white people do it?
ClimateSanity
New member
You cannot expect simplicity and logic from someone who has been guilt shamed into believing something.
The effect is even stronger if you think you're better than most whites simply by virtue of accepting this mantra.
What I'm noting is that there is a numbers problem (in terms of an inroad) even in a perfect world of limited numbers of seats and when you tack on the advantage it shrinks a small window into an unfairly narrow gate.
I put up some statistics a while back on the attitudes of a goodly number of whites about blacks. When you consider the impact of some of it even toward the more benign end it's going to have impact. And then you have the sort evidenced by that manager of a Dairy Queen dropping N-bombs at a customer.
I'm saying that before you get to arguing about any of that you have a playing field that's going to impact an already uphill battle.
Interesting how you put a level field context to one that isn't. Rather, and advantage has to be overcome by doing more than the fellow who possesses it. When white people do nothing they retain the advantage that must be overcome by those who don't possess it, meaning your "only when white people do it" is either mistaken or distorting that context.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
and perhaps someday you'll get around to teling us exactly what that advantage is
We have...repeatedly.
The fact that you can blithely ignore this advantage proves evident of the very phenomenon...though you stubbornly or ignorantly choose to side-step this fact.