Is Time Absolute or Relative: Bob Enyart argues it's absolute...

[fool]

Empirically there is no difference. If you measure something as 6 inches (and you've ensured that your ruly is mechanically correct) then we must assume that it is six inches. We can invent all sorts of ideas about what the length really is, but empirically it is six inches and there is no valid reason to say that your inertial frame is the correct one. In other words, if someone else measures it as four inches because of their velocity, then empircally it is four inches for them and six inches for you. Neither of you is more right than the other.

Just a quick note on this.
If you're using a tape measure you should inspect the tab on the end, if it has been dropped on that corner the tab may be bent. Thus skewing yor measurement.

 

[Clete]

Jonny,

Assume that both clocks in Bob's hypothetical are perfect clocks. How do you account for the fact that one reads a day behind the other and yet have both "witnessed" the same number of sunrises and sunsets?

How could it be accounted for except by saying that the effects of relativity effected the clocks not time itself?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Adam]

What I'm saying is, the time between two events doesn't change. It is what it is. Also, time can be nothing other than the measurement between two or more events.

No matter what I perceive, whether it be a clock or my own mind, that distance stays the same.

truthman

 

[Clete]

Yes, but these very slight effects only create such startling results when extrapolated over vast distances and at extremely great speeds. You were trying to make these effects appear illogical by representing them as objects and conditions in a very close, human-scaled environment.

These two openning sentences of your response to me are contradictory and thus render the rest of your post moot.

The simple fact is that what happens at the quantum level effects that which is at the Newtonian level. That's what's so earth shaking about Einstein's theory. If you don't believe me just ask a survivor of the Heroshima attack in WWII. And it is when these large scale effects of small scale events are observable that we run into all sorts of contradictory predictions.

Inisting that you can only talk about relativity at the quantum level is to ignore the thrust of Einstein's theory and to bury one's head in the proverbial sand.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[fool]

Jonny,

Assume that both clocks in Bob's hypothetical are perfect clocks. How do you account for the fact that one reads a day behind the other and yet have both "witnessed" the same number of sunrises and sunsets?

How could it be accounted for except by saying that the effects of relativity effected the clocks not time itself?

Resting in Him,
Clete

The sunrises and sunsets have a different interval between them, one that is relaitive to the speed of the clock observing them. Hence the "day" that you and Bob think you found is an illusion created by the fact that your adding up the slight difference in those day lenghts. Just as One Eyed Jack stated.

 

[Clete]

The sunrises and sunsets have a different interval between them, one that is relaitive to the speed of the clock observing them. Hence the "day" that you and Bob think you found is an illusion created by the fact that your adding up the slight difference in those day lenghts. Just as One Eyed Jack stated.

This misses the point. I understand that the sun automatically corrects for the time dilation experienced by Bob's clocks but that's just the point; the Earth still revolves only once a day, no matter how one's clock may read otherwise. One clock reads that it took exactly 24.00 hourse for a the Earth to spin once on its axis but the other clock read that it took 24.00 hours to spin 99.999999999999% of the way around and yet the Earth does give a crap about what your clock reads, it just spins once per day for both clocks. And I do mean once, not 1.000000000001 times just once and only once per day for BOTH clocks.

Further, your argument doesn't address the fact that throughout this exeriment neither clock, in spite of the fact that one running slower than the other, ever leaves the others present. If the position of the clocks were such that a line of site could be maintians, observers at both clocks would never leave eachothers site and are therefore present with eachother at the same moment in time at all times.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[PureX]

First, no Earth day is exactly 24 hours long. And, anyway, all these things are relative.

A day at the top of a mountain is longer than a day at the base of the mountain because of the definition of a day. Also, the top of the mountain travels a further distance and at greater speed than the base of the mountain. And because the "day" is being defined by a sunrise and a sunset around the surface of a sphere, the sun will be seen to rise on top of the mountain before it will be seen to rise at the base of the mountain, and the sun will be seen to set at the mountain top after it will be seen to set at the mountain's base. Once we remember that the variations caused by quantum physics are extremely slight, we will realize that these variations are overwhelmed in our everyday experiences by the effect of more immediate relationships.

 

[Clete]

First, no Earth day is exactly 24 hours long. And, anyway, all these things are relative.

A day at the top of a mountain is longer than a day at the base of the mountain because of the definition of a day. Also, the top of the mountain travels a further distance and at greater speed than the base of the mountain. And because the "day" is being defined by a sunrise and a sunset around the surface of a sphere, the sun will be seen to rise on top of the mountain before it will be seen to rise at the base of the mountain, and the sun will be seen to set at the mountain top after it will be seen to set at the mountain's base. Once we remember that the variations caused by quantum physics are extremely slight, we will realize that these variations are overwhelmed in our everyday experiences by the effect of more immediate relationships.

All 100% completely irrelivent.

 

[fool]

This misses the point. I understand that the sun automatically corrects for the time dilation experienced by Bob's clocks but that's just the point; the Earth still revolves only once a day, no matter how one's clock may read otherwise. One clock reads that it took exactly 24.00 hourse for a the Earth to spin once on its axis but the other clock read that it took 24.00 hours to spin 99.999999999999% of the way around and yet the Earth does give a crap about what your clock reads, it just spins once per day for both clocks. And I do mean once, not 1.000000000001 times just once and only once per day for BOTH clocks.

you've got it upside down.
the earth makes a rotation for sure, all the way around, but one clock thinks that it took a little longer to do it than the other clock did. And there both right cause it's relative.

Further, your argument doesn't address the fact that throughout this exeriment neither clock, in spite of the fact that one running slower than the other, ever leaves the others present. If the position of the clocks were such that a line of site could be maintians, observers at both clocks would never leave eachothers site and are therefore present with eachother at the same moment in time at all times.

Not so. line of sight or not. they are traveling at different speeds, like my kids on the marry-go-round example.
Another thought on line of sight, you've got one to the stars, but what you see is light that left long ago, so seeing it dosen't put you in the same moment at all, it might not even be there now! you must wait to find that out.
Also your sunrise thing is misleading, go to the North pole, you can wait an awful long time to see a sunrise, does that mean it's still the same day?
For this reason, in the interest of clarity, I would suggest that we stick to one measurment of time, I believe atomic clocks were mentioned.
And as I mentioned, One Eyed Jack already pointed out, if you correct the time on one clock daily, and keep track of the corrections you still have dialation, without having to explain to people why Clete's Atomic clock/sunrise counting false dilema is false.


resting in my chair
fool

 

[Clete]

you've got it upside down.
the earth makes a rotation for sure, all the way around, but one clock thinks that it took a little longer to do it than the other clock did. And there both right cause it's relative.

And yet both clocks regardless of their relative states make it around the with the earth at the same rate the earth takes them.

Not so. line of sight or not. they are traveling at different speeds, like my kids on the marry-go-round example.

Are you saying that one would be looking into the past and the other into the future? Is that really what you are suggesting?

Another thought on line of sight, you've got one to the stars, but what you see is light that left long ago, so seeing it dosen't put you in the same moment at all, it might not even be there now! you must wait to find that out.

This is irrelivent.

Also your sunrise thing is misleading, go to the North pole, you can wait an awful long time to see a sunrise, does that mean it's still the same day?

Also irrelivent.

For this reason, in the interest of clarity, I would suggest that we stick to one measurment of time, I believe atomic clocks were mentioned.

You can't. That's a big part of the whole point. Even the atomic clocks don't agree with each other. We are only pointing out that basically every clock reads different than every other clock for whatever reason and yet every clock that exists has arrived at the present along with everything else. Everything that currently exists, regardless of how fast or slow the clock on the wall is running as tied everything else to this moment in time. Imagine that!

And as I mentioned, One Eyed Jack already pointed out, if you correct the time on one clock daily, and keep track of the corrections you still have dialation, without having to explain to people why Clete's Atomic clock/sunrise counting false dilema is false.

I think we are done here. You've just conceded the point without even realizing what you've said. Have fun figuring it out.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

Jesus said,

"Go ye therefore to the Calvinists, demeaning them and harrassing them in the name of the Adherents of the Open View. And lo I am with you always, unless, of course, I am wrong about what might happen in the future, in which case we'll just have to see."

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Jesus said,

"Go ye therefore to the Calvinists, demeaning them and harrassing them in the name of the Adherents of the Open View. And lo I am with you always, unless, of course, I am wrong about what might happen in the future, in which case we'll just have to see."

Hmmmm :think: I don't remember that one, but I do remember this one....

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

 

[fool]

Hey Doc :wave:

 

[PureX]

All 100% completely irrelivent.

I don't think anyone made you the judge of what is relevant to this thread. You might want to tone down that snotty ego, huh?

 

[fool]

I don't think anyone made you the judge of what is relevant to this thread. You might want to tone down that snotty ego, huh?

:thumb:

 

[Bob Enyart]

?

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People, this is not hard!

Time is the measurement between two or more events.

truthman

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[Adam]

I mean, that time is the measurement of the distance between two or more events.

 

[simply one]

Everyone in this thread is going back and forth, but missing the basic point of the relativity of Time. Time is relative in that if one person stood on Earth, and one person was in a space ship going, say, even 1% the speed of light (something like 50,000,000 mph I believe), then time WOULD PASS SLOWER for the person in the spaceship. Not just time, as in the amount of time their clocks measure, but actual SpaceTime. The person on the spaceship would have experienced LESS Time than the observer on Earth.

Basically, if both people are exactly 30 when the spaceship leaves, then the ship returns 10 Earth-years later, the person who had been traveling at even a fraction of the speed of light would in fact be YOUNGER than the person who remained on Earth. Time is relative in that two observers, moving at significantly different speeds, or in significantly different areas of gravity actual experience MORE/LESS Time. Time is not a solid block, like the metal in a clock. Time bends, just as space does (space-time, remember?)

 

[David2]

Truthman , the reason why i ditto your expression is because God is the absolute, cause of all caused. He is Time and in Him there is no time since that state of being is in eternal time.

In the state of this world because of the relative mind there is a cause to try a put values to time hence clocks and moons and so on. There is need and reason for this but when you hear of Jesus who put his foot an the head of death ie 'victory over death', then what is the significance of time?

But notice despite all, there is one common that happens to all. "I kill , I make alive " God says Deut 32:39, 1Sam 2:6
He is the cause and effect therefore the measurement is Absolute.
But consider these statements and you will know that for all go to one place, and yet still another place .

So what is time that it be only measured in an Absloute sense!!!!
All is written is scripture , no need to speculate.

The arguements here are petty, and have left off good reason.
read Deut 32 : 41 " i will whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold of judgement, i will render vengeance to mine enemies.......

Remind you of someone and the end times?
The time is at hand and these days are shortened.
So what doos that imply if the days in the physical sense are the same length, ie 24 hours.

Ans---It is an Abslote meaning of time not the relative, for in God there is no relative sense but it be Abslolute.
Truthman you are right and i hope this helps, defend that right.

 

[PureX]

Everyone in this thread is going back and forth, but missing the basic point of the relativity of Time. Time is relative in that if one person stood on Earth, and one person was in a space ship going, say, even 1% the speed of light (something like 50,000,000 mph I believe), then time WOULD PASS SLOWER for the person in the spaceship. Not just time, as in the amount of time their clocks measure, but actual SpaceTime. The person on the spaceship would have experienced LESS Time than the observer on Earth.

Basically, if both people are exactly 30 when the spaceship leaves, then the ship returns 10 Earth-years later, the person who had been traveling at even a fraction of the speed of light would in fact be YOUNGER than the person who remained on Earth. Time is relative in that two observers, moving at significantly different speeds, or in significantly different areas of gravity actual experience MORE/LESS Time. Time is not a solid block, like the metal in a clock. Time bends, just as space does (space-time, remember?)

But what you're calling an "experience of time" is really just relationship consciousness. Whether one is standing on Earth (also a vehicle moving through space) or sitting in a spaceship, what they each "experience as time" is the succession of their own thoughts and behaviors. If they were not aware of this "succession", they would not "experiece time". It's the relationship between one thought and/or action, and another, that creates the illusion of time passing. If we were to remove our consciousness of these relationships, the "experience" of their following one another would vanish and time would become a meaningless abstraction.

As for the difference registered by the "time" measuring devices on vehicles moving through space at different speeds, or through different fields of gravity intensity, this is the result of how speed and gravity effect space, and the matter moving through that space. And that space and matter includes the space and matter of the clocks, and of our own bodies if we're traveling with the clocks.