Is The Physical Realm Analogous To A Simulated Reality?

[Derf]

Ahh now I understand. I meant...in heaven we won't need physical eyes to see things. Will we?

Job thought so:
Job 19:25-27 KJV — For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

I don't know at the moment.



But Paul also wrote that we are already dead. That we have died and our lives are hidden with Christ. But we are still here, talking and walking around! Would you say that cheapens the fact that Christ died for us? Of course not. Likewise when a baby dies, that baby is heaven with the Lord.

Is he?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV — Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What's the lead up to that statement? The Thessalonians were concerned about what happens to those who had already died, before Christ returned. He didn't comfort them by saying, "They are with the Lord already," but instead said they would first be resurrected
(1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV — For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: )
and after that would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
This passage again emphasizes the importance of the resurrection even on how we are with the Lord.

But that doesn't lessen the price the Lord paid for us.

3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

What I think is, Colossians 3:3-3 isn't just a metaphor or a figure of speech. I think Paul is making a statement of reality. That when we accept Christ, at least some part of us actually dies and is with the Lord, who is seated at the right hand of God. It is no longer attached to the physical realm.

But Christ is still physical. Remember that He first rose from the dead, in the same body (the tomb was empty) before He ascended into heaven. He is forever attached to the physical realm.

So I see a strong indication of this physical realm being a simulated or "lesser" reality of sorts, in these above verses.

God seems to be redeeming the physical realm, if (because) His only begotten Son is forever a part of it. There are still some changes coming, but the NEW heavens and earth will be a physical realm where all these physical humans, include Chrust Jesus, will live.

 

[ttruscott]

Yes we are all real. We are spiritual beings that for some reason, God decided to interact with us firstly via this simulated environment of the physical realm. That is what I mean in my OP.

I get it...the temporary body is a simulation of the spirit which was our first creation,

 

[ttruscott]

God seems to be redeeming the physical realm, if (because) His only begotten Son is forever a part of it. There are still some changes coming, but the NEW heavens and earth will be a physical realm where all these physical humans, include Chrust Jesus, will live.

Agreed.

Why make a universe of such vastness if it is never to be used? The vast universe is the playground for the heavnly spirits who can use adapted physicality to experience all the wonders of HIS creation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Why make a universe of such vastness if it is never to be used?

The universe exists to demonstrate God's glory, and serves as a witness for His existence.

Also, it's beautiful.

It doesn't need to be usable to have a purpose.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Job thought so:
Job 19:25-27 KJV — For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Do you believe we will be made of atoms in Heaven?

Is he?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV — Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What's the lead up to that statement? The Thessalonians were concerned about what happens to those who had already died, before Christ returned. He didn't comfort them by saying, "They are with the Lord already," but instead said they would first be resurrected
(1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV — For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: )
and after that would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
This passage again emphasizes the importance of the resurrection even on how we are with the Lord.

I think the Biblical authors believed that death was when the spirit departs from the body. So yeah, for the dead to rise would mean that the spirit has been rejoined with the body. Death doesnt mean that the spirit was destroyed or shut off somehow.

But the Thessalonians were mostly Greeks I guess. We don't know what their exact issue was when Paul wrote to them. But it sounds to me like he is addressing a rather childish, perhaps even selfish concern, that the brothers who are still alive when the Lord returns will somehow be better off than those who have already died.

Nothing in Thessalonians precludes my belief that Paul likely would have given the Thessalonians at least a basic understanding of what happens when we die. And nothing in Thessalonians preludes my belief that Paul likely would have already explained to them that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Just as Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

If we read Thessalonians the way you suggest, we not only would have to say "Well maybe Jesus didn't really mean that"...We would also have to believe that Paul founded a Church in Macedonia and for some reason, never gave them any basic or important understanding about what happens when we die. That doing so, was only an afterthought that came to him, perhaps months later when he decided to write them this letter.

But Christ is still physical. Remember that He first rose from the dead, in the same body (the tomb was empty) before He ascended into heaven. He is forever attached to the physical realm.

God seems to be redeeming the physical realm, if (because) His only begotten Son is forever a part of it. There are still some changes coming, but the NEW heavens and earth will be a physical realm where all these physical humans, include Christ Jesus, will live.

Well, that's it good point. But it wont be the same universe. And I don't think anyone believes that this new universe will necessarily consist of atoms and particle physics.

I appreciate your feedback BTW. also at @Idolater even though I joke around a bit. I don't often find the time to talk about these things with other Christians.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

The universe exists to demonstrate God's glory, and serves as a witness for His existence.

Also, it's beautiful.

It doesn't need to be usable to have a purpose.

These are not only great points. They are undeniable.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

So now that we all agree () that the spiritual supersedes the physical and thus this physical universe can be thought of as a simulated reality, we can move on to the next question: What is the purpose?

I would say JudgeRightly hit the nail on the head.

The universe exists to demonstrate God's glory, and serves as a witness for His existence.

I would stress that it serves as a perfect witness. (Though this is of course is already implied in JudgeRightly's quote.) So that God can perfectly express Himself in this new environment. So that we can have a relationship with Him in it. Because He is the Father.

That must be it. And no matter which configuration of this simulated environment we are in (ie. before the Fall, after the flood or when God grafted in the gentiles) it must work to serve that purpose. In one configurate there presumably was no physical pain. In another, people get eaten alive by sharks.

In one, only priests can enter the Holy of Holies, after washing themselves . In another, we can all enter it at any time -our bodies are the temple. And so on.

And I think we can know it must be this way, from the language used in right at the beginning of Genesis. God is dividing things. Darkness from light. Time in to seasons. Land and water. Kinds. Dwelling places of creatures and so on.

To me, this indicates a covenant on a cosmic scale. Just as the Jews would divide an animal to say, let me end up like this animal if I break my word, God is making a promise here (about the purpose of His creation?). And then He creates Adam and puts him in a garden where they can dwell together in the cool of the day.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

We would also have to believe that Paul founded a Church in Macedonia and for some reason, never gave them any basic or important understanding about what happens when we die. That doing so, was only an afterthought that came to him, perhaps months later when he decided to write them this letter.

I'm not sure I explained this very well here so I want to try to clarify what I mean real quick:

It would not makes sense, if the point of Thessalonians 4 was for Paul to communicate the idea of "soul sleep" to the brothers in Macedonia. Because "what happens when we die" is so foundational to Christianity, that if "soul sleep" were true, then surly this topic would have already been covered when the gospel was first preached to the Thessalonians and not months later, in a letter from Paul, as an afterthought.

Right?

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

The Bible says Rachel was dying because her spirit was leaving her body. So when I read Colossians 3, I take to mean that, yes we Christians have actually died, to the extent that at least some part of our spirit must have been detached from our body in some way and is with the Lord. In the same way that babies also go to the Lord when they die.

I think the Bible is consistent with this idea. If I am correct, then thinking of the physical realm as a simulation might be a useful way to help understand this. The human brain is not the spirit, it is the interface the spirit experiences the physical realm through.

 

[Idolater]

Yeah but I think the word "Metaphysical" is kinda gay, isn't it?
I mean, you are either talking about the physical or the spiritual right? Which is it? We don't need to use gay words from the 1980s horoscope and gossip magazines.

What I'm saying is that Colossians 3 reads like we're not dead in either the spiritual (contra the prima facie interpretation of the text) or the physical realm (it is apparent we're not physically dead), unless we can be spiritually dead but keep having to remember to live as if we are spiritually dead, so that we don't forget that we are spiritually dead. To me that reads more like, "Don't forget that you're SUPPOSED TO BE dead," not like, that you are actually, really, metaphysically dead.

And I think that comports with Paul saying we are dead to sin, in another place. He doesn't say we are dead to sin, so just forget about ever sinning again, you will just automatically never sin again since you are dead to sin. No, he's always telling us to not sin, not just that we're just dead to sin, but to, like, in Colossians 3, remember that we're dead to sin, by mortification of the body. Like, "Don't forget: Don't sin."

But the Bible tells us to focus on the spiritual. I take that to mean what is spiritual supersedes the physical.

Well then that says the spiritual is more important, not that it's more real. I get what you're saying, but you're using the wrong word. To think of the physical as a simulacrum of the spiritual is the seed of Gnosticism.

$$ 1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
$$ 1Jo 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

$$ 2Jo 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Christ can't really come in the flesh if the physical isn't real. This btw is the root cause of disputing the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I don't agree that Paul was talking about gay metaphysics when he wrote Colossians 3. I think he was making a true statement about reality (inspired by God!), that we have died and our lives are hidden with Christ (Don't you ever feel that way?). Colossians 3 isnt complicated. It's rather straightforward actually. Are you sure you are not thinking about something else?

I feel like I have a better idea of what you're talking about now than I did before, but I'm still not sure. You think God made the physical realm to resemble the spiritual realm in many ways? That's my best guess. Here's a question for you, Do only-spiritual parties like angels and demons, with no physicality, have the ability to observe the physical realm? Or do you need a physical brain, in order to experience this World?

 

[Derf]

What I'm saying is that Colossians 3 reads like we're not dead in either the spiritual (contra the prima facie interpretation of the text) or the physical realm (it is apparent we're not physically dead), unless we can be spiritually dead but keep having to remember to live as if we are spiritually dead, so that we don't forget that we are spiritually dead. To me that reads more like, "Don't forget that you're SUPPOSED TO BE dead," not like, that you are actually, really, metaphysically dead.

And I think that comports with Paul saying we are dead to sin, in another place. He doesn't say we are dead to sin, so just forget about ever sinning again, you will just automatically never sin again since you are dead to sin. No, he's always telling us to not sin, not just that we're just dead to sin, but to, like, in Colossians 3, remember that we're dead to sin, by mortification of the body. Like, "Don't forget: Don't sin."

I think it means that we are dead to the wages of sin (it no longer has any effect on us in some way, probably in the fear it produces, since He gives us perfect peace). If we have died (in Christ), then we can't die again. But it's looking forward to a future reality when we will be resurrected never to die again, so we still have to work to not sin in this current reality, which is the mortification of our flesh, or the old man, as you say.

 

[Derf]

I'm not sure I explained this very well here so I want to try to clarify what I mean real quick:

It would not makes sense, if the point of Thessalonians 4 was for Paul to communicate the idea of "soul sleep" to the brothers in Macedonia. Because "what happens when we die" is so foundational to Christianity, that if "soul sleep" were true, then surly this topic would have already been covered when the gospel was first preached to the Thessalonians and not months later, in a letter from Paul, as an afterthought.

Right?

You are assuming that the eternal soul is something that is integral/foundational to Christianity. But it has been debated for thousands of years and still is today. If it can be debated with all of Paul's writings available to us, why would you think the Thessalonians got it all verbally before he wrote to them? They were confused by something which IS foundational, which is the resurrection, because they were worried about those who had already died participating in some future glory, which seems even more important than whether the soul sleeps or not.

The Bible says Rachel was dying because her spirit was leaving her body.

Some translate that as "her breath leaving her body", since it is the same word. Similarly Jesus "gave up the ghost" (kjv) when He died, which is saying "He breathed His last breath". It wasn't some special thing only the God-man could do, as Abrahan, Ishmael, Isaac, Ananias, and Herod all did so.

So when I read Colossians 3, I take to mean that, yes we Christians have actually died, to the extent that at least some part of our spirit must have been detached from our body in some way and is with the Lord.

Some part, maybe, but maybe just our heart (desires) or mindset. That we are seated with Him in the heavenlies is talking more of the rights and privileges we have because He is there and has us on His mind, seems to me.

In the same way that babies also go to the Lord when they die.

Previously addressed, may talk more in future posts.

I think the Bible is consistent with this idea. If I am correct, then thinking of the physical realm as a simulation might be a useful way to help understand this. The human brain is not the spirit, it is the interface the spirit experiences the physical realm through.

@Idolater handled this fairly well (except for His transubstantiation insertion) in saying that Christ became part of this world. He had a body made of dust, that was protected from destruction (kept from corruption), that was taken up into heaven. If any tells us whether we will be made of atoms in heaven, this would.