Krsto
Well-known member
I think he was just trying to be funny Tim - don't get your bonnet in a bunch.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
I think he was just trying to be funny Tim - don't get your bonnet in a bunch.
This is why I don't like know nothing spammers. If I react to them, it appears that I have my "bonnet in a bunch". If I don't, then they have made their point unchallenged. "Doctor" Steve doesn't believe that the wages of sin is death, but he doesn't have the Biblical support to back up his belief. So he mindlessly spams my thread. I've told him that I am willing to discuss this with him, but he is not interested in that. That is much too mature for "Doctor" Steve. He would rather act like a child.
"Doctor" Steve:
If you disagree with me, I would love to talk about it. If you don't want to talk about it, don't post junk. I would love to be proven wrong, then I would be able to believe the same thing 80% of the church believes. It would be comforting. But I have to believe what is written in the Bible. But your little sniping posts are not doing anything to change to my mind. In fact, they do the opposite. If people who believe in eternal torment post like you do, there can't be much truth in it. If there was truth in it, you would present that truth rather than your empty little digs.
If you disagree with me, I would love to talk about it. If you don't want to talk about it, don't post junk. I would love to be proven wrong, then I would be able to believe the same thing 80% of the church believes. It would be comforting. But I have to believe what is written in the Bible. But your little sniping posts are not doing anything to change to my mind. In fact, they do the opposite. If people who believe in eternal torment post like you do, there can't be much truth in it. If there was truth in it, you would present that truth rather than your empty little digs.
Krsto
Well-known member
I have rarely seen the doc make a point so there is rarely a point to challenge. It is just mindless drive by's as you say, trying to be funny (and sometimes succeeding) (what's the plural for drive by, drive bies? That doesn't look right
) No need for response.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I've shown you what I believe, but you deny it means what it says. I've shown you Scripture backing up eternal conscious torment but you deny it's meaning. I don't know what else to say, except that you're too whimsical with your theology.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
ECT fails in glorifying 'God'.......
ECT fails in glorifying 'God'.......
As shared here previously, those who 'believe' in ECT are burdened with proving that 'God' who is Love condemns and tortures souls for all eternity...to no end,....which is pure insanity, to say nothing of the more noble attributes of God which are demeaned and desecrated by such an act of cruelty and sadism.
I've exposed ECT on that level and as it clashes with other principles Here.
It would behoove those who believe 'God' to be an eternal punisher to look within their own souls to see if some element of wrath, indignation or spite is brooding within by which they impose upon the character of 'God' the mirrored image of their own warped sense of justice.
Love is ever availing and willing to inspire, lead, guide, resurrect, revive and restore. Any soul that has the capacity & ability to RESPOND to 'God' and 'repent' can be saved. Those who believe in ECT assume that souls that become eternally condemned have reached a point of no return, and are therefore condemned to eternal punishments with no hope of salvation or relief. Those who believe in 'soul-death' also assume that a soul reaches a point of no return, or has made a final and permanent choice to self-destruct and become 'dis-integrated' (expunged from existence), from which there is no return or resurrection. These souls become as if they never were. The Universalist position allows for all souls to eventually/ultimately respond to the divine drawing of love, in which they are re-turned and restored back into harmony with 'God', the love and will of 'God' ultimately triumphing in all,....to the glory of God!
Even mulling over these other possibilities (plus the philosophical, moral, metaphysical/ontological considerations),.....the traditional concept of ECT is repugnant to reason and an insult to intelligence, to say nothing of LOVE....whose will is ALWAYS to preserve, unfold and amplify the soul's integrity, joy, and appreciation of life. ECT works against God's own nature, will and power, in total contradiction to it.
pj
ECT fails in glorifying 'God'.......
As shared here previously, those who 'believe' in ECT are burdened with proving that 'God' who is Love condemns and tortures souls for all eternity...to no end,....which is pure insanity, to say nothing of the more noble attributes of God which are demeaned and desecrated by such an act of cruelty and sadism.
I've exposed ECT on that level and as it clashes with other principles Here.
It would behoove those who believe 'God' to be an eternal punisher to look within their own souls to see if some element of wrath, indignation or spite is brooding within by which they impose upon the character of 'God' the mirrored image of their own warped sense of justice.
Love is ever availing and willing to inspire, lead, guide, resurrect, revive and restore. Any soul that has the capacity & ability to RESPOND to 'God' and 'repent' can be saved. Those who believe in ECT assume that souls that become eternally condemned have reached a point of no return, and are therefore condemned to eternal punishments with no hope of salvation or relief. Those who believe in 'soul-death' also assume that a soul reaches a point of no return, or has made a final and permanent choice to self-destruct and become 'dis-integrated' (expunged from existence), from which there is no return or resurrection. These souls become as if they never were. The Universalist position allows for all souls to eventually/ultimately respond to the divine drawing of love, in which they are re-turned and restored back into harmony with 'God', the love and will of 'God' ultimately triumphing in all,....to the glory of God!
Even mulling over these other possibilities (plus the philosophical, moral, metaphysical/ontological considerations),.....the traditional concept of ECT is repugnant to reason and an insult to intelligence, to say nothing of LOVE....whose will is ALWAYS to preserve, unfold and amplify the soul's integrity, joy, and appreciation of life. ECT works against God's own nature, will and power, in total contradiction to it.
pj
You said that I need to believe the WHOLE BIBLE, and I showed you from the WHOLE BIBLE where I got my beliefs from. Now I'm surprised that you don't want to show me how your doctrine is derived from the WHOLE BIBLE. You've shown me one verse, from an apocalyptic book that kind of supports your doctrine, if I accept your assumptions.
But you said the WHOLE BIBLE supports your doctrine. So why don't you show me from the WHOLE BIBLE the verses that say the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever? I've shown you from the WHOLE BIBLE that the wicked will perish because of sin. The fact is that the WHOLE BIBLE doesn't agree with the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Those who believe God's Word is not true expose themselves by what they reject of what He's said, making what they pretend to accept just a way to bolster their pet theology. You don't get to cherry-pick from Scripture. Either you believe God or you call Him a liar. He has yet to be proven a liar even once, so you might as well go ahead and believe what He says. He is The One Who said that the Lake of Fire is eternal torment. If you don't believe Him then you're calling Him a liar. God said that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. God said that men get sent there to be tormented. Denying what God said is not going to do you any good. Neither is believing lies channeled by a demon (Urantia).
Aimiel
Well-known member
You are in denial of a lot of It...
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments…
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment…
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Conclusion
The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of evidence showing that Hell is a literal place that burns with fire. Those people today who scoff and deny the existence of a literal Hell that burns with fire are calling God a liar. Either you believe the Bible is God's Word or you don't. There is NO middle ground.
"Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit" (Jude 1:17-19).
Trimmed from an article by David J. Stewart, "Hell in the Scriptures."
Why, for instance, would God reserve angels in hell for judgment? Why not just burn them up and be done with them if that is what is going to happen to them? It's because the Lake of Fire, which will torment them for ever and ever, is what God has reserved for them, obviously. The WHOLE Bible shows us that hell is real. Eternal conscious torment is real. You need to wake up. You've swallowed a lie.
Thanks for the cut and paste.
I see that you don't have any scriptures that say that the lost are tormented alive forever in hell. Can you see that? Sheol is the grave, being dead. Being sent to Sheol means to die.
You've assumed a lot, and nothing you've posted proves that eternal conscious torment is real. According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death. You are the one who has swallowed the lie.
This line can be used as a "thought-stopper". No one here is calling God a liar; clearly we disagree about what He is actually saying in the Scriptures. Implying that people are calling God a liar is not helpful. Based on what I have read in this thread, I don't think its right to pull out the "you are calling God a liar" card.
Just so you (and others) know where I am coming from:
1. I believe that when Paul asserts that the wages of sin is death, I think we do indeed have to take him at his word. It is, to my mind, entirely too much of a stretch to either redefine "death" so that it gains an "eternal life in suffering" meaning, or to posit that Paul is talking only about the death of the body (there is, I suggest, no Biblical grounds for a "body-soul" division anyway.
2. We have clear Biblical precedent for the term "forever" being used to denote a finite period of time.
3. As Krstos has pointed out, the word translated as forever can, repeat can, signify an indefinite, but finite time period.
4. It is inconceivable to me that God would consign the lost to eternal torment - it goes against any reasonable concept of love and it certainly goes against the "love your enemies" model set forth for us.
5. It is at least plausible, as one other poster has suggested, that belief in ECT arises from a projection of our (less than noble) desire to believe that "the bad guy will get his".
Clearly, for my position to work, we do indeed have to grant the use of literary device here and there (although there is rather clear evidence from the Bible of the use of literary device as per an earlier post of mine). Obviously there are texts that, on a literal reading, suggest eternal concious torment. But, and this is where we need to do the hard work of engaging the possibility that literary device is being used in such texts, or that we need to examine the original Greek or the original Hebrew.
I, for one, am not necessarily saying that the lost do not suffer; I am saying that they are ultimately annihilated and therefore do not suffer eternally (if they suffer at all).
Consider this text above: Describing worms that never die and a fire that is not quenched does not, of course, force us to conclude that the "stuff" the worms eat, and that the fire consumes, lasts forever.
If you are talking about Matt 10, I believe the "one" who is able to destroy body and soul is not God (as probably most believe) but rather Satan.
Krsto
Well-known member
Well said.
Revelation employs literary devices? Ahh, we can't have that. That puts us down a slippery slope where we might actually take something that was actually meant to be taken literally and take it as a literary device. I mean, if ANY book in the bible should be taken literally, it should be Revelation, right? LOL!
I wonder how we (in 21st century western Christendom) got to the point where it is often assumed without question that the Scriptures are to be taken entirely literally. Where would such a strange idea come from? Do we not think that people 2000 years ago (or even 3000 years ago) could not recognize a good metaphor when they saw one?
I suspect we will agree on the following: A lot of work has to be done to de-construct this deepy ingrained, but clearly incorrect, notion that the Scriptures do not use literary devices of various sorts. The pernicious effects of this overly-literal way of reading the scriptures do not pop only in the setting of the eternal torment issue, of course.
Krsto
Well-known member
A lot of people use this principle: "We take it literally unless it's obvious it should be taken metaphorically." The problem with that is it's not always obvious since the passage doesn't come right out and tell you it should be taken literally. Even when it states it should not be taken literally, and it's obvious to the casual observer, many still take it literally. Revelation is a case in point where it says in the introduction in the very first verse that God sent and "signified" the message, or in other words, gave John symbols to pass on. I've actually had people tell me yes, there will be a literal city descend out of heaven that is in the shape of a cube that's 1600 miles across on each side and 1600 miles tall. Good grief, there isn't even any atmosphere above 20 miles. 1600 miles is in outer space.
Yet for all that they still use a literal interpretation of Revelation to prove their ECT doctrine.
Pathetic head-in-the-sand 3rd grade level interpretation.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
so many assumptions.......
so many assumptions.......
First off, a lot of assumptions of what 'God' supposedly said, as the burden of proof falls on you to prove it was 'God' (which 'god' who knows?) who said such, and then distinguishing what 'God' supposedly said from what was filtered thru the human medium (mind, imagery, imagination, symbolism, limited vocabulary and intelligence) of who wrote these words down,...further 'modified' in some cases by copyists. What you get is a potpourri of interpretations.
I've brought up the Urantia Papers because they give a more detailed explanation of what happens to souls who are 'dis-integrated', having chosen a final and eternal 'death'. There is no resurrection from this 'death' (the second death), for the soul is expunged from existence, its individual personality-template and soul-potential is 'terminated'. All living energies, memory or value-experience of such souls are absorbed back into the Collective Consciousness or Universal Spirit. There is more about this, for even though the soul is 'extinguished',...nothing of eternal value is ever lost, as it is merged into the greater matrix of the OverSoul of creation. (this is a more complex study using various terms and definitions, best laid aside for now. One can access more in our Urantia thread).
~*~*~
finally.....
What you're left with is a 'belief' that 'God' has an eternal torture program which defeats his will and maintains his tyranny as an endless cycle of madness. Somehow this is justified because you say so....and its your belief that 'God' says so. It is infantile to even continue this ECT business, since its already been revealed as 'inept', besides being a gross misreprentation of 'God', whose justice and mercy is revealed perfectly by his loving wisdom.
pj
so many assumptions.......
First off, a lot of assumptions of what 'God' supposedly said, as the burden of proof falls on you to prove it was 'God' (which 'god' who knows?) who said such, and then distinguishing what 'God' supposedly said from what was filtered thru the human medium (mind, imagery, imagination, symbolism, limited vocabulary and intelligence) of who wrote these words down,...further 'modified' in some cases by copyists. What you get is a potpourri of interpretations.
I've brought up the Urantia Papers because they give a more detailed explanation of what happens to souls who are 'dis-integrated', having chosen a final and eternal 'death'. There is no resurrection from this 'death' (the second death), for the soul is expunged from existence, its individual personality-template and soul-potential is 'terminated'. All living energies, memory or value-experience of such souls are absorbed back into the Collective Consciousness or Universal Spirit. There is more about this, for even though the soul is 'extinguished',...nothing of eternal value is ever lost, as it is merged into the greater matrix of the OverSoul of creation. (this is a more complex study using various terms and definitions, best laid aside for now. One can access more in our Urantia thread).
~*~*~
finally.....
What you're left with is a 'belief' that 'God' has an eternal torture program which defeats his will and maintains his tyranny as an endless cycle of madness. Somehow this is justified because you say so....and its your belief that 'God' says so. It is infantile to even continue this ECT business, since its already been revealed as 'inept', besides being a gross misreprentation of 'God', whose justice and mercy is revealed perfectly by his loving wisdom.
pj
The Beast/False Prophet (humans) are put in the lake of fire at the start of the millennium. The verb tenses show they are still there when joined by Satan and the lost 1000 years later (end of millennium). Read the passages we already gave you. This is not a picture of annihilation. Much different inspired words would be used to show a different view than the biblical, historical, orthodox one.
Words like:
"For the wages of sin is death"?
"Whoever believes in him will not perish"?
"The soul who sins shall die"?
"The wicked shall perish"?
"They pay the penalty of eternal destruction"?
"Sin when it is fully grown brings forth death"?
"Bringing swift destruction upon themselves"?
(Just a sampling, there are many more)
Yes, there are many different words used in the inspired Bible to show a different view than the traditional one. Why don't we return to a biblical understanding of the consequence of rejecting God rather than blindly following the false traditions of men?