Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[God's Truth]

How do you not get the message that souls die from Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul who sins shall die"? How did you miss the fact that the soul can be destroyed when you read Matt 10:28 which says "...who can destroy both body and soul..."?

That scripture tells us MAN CANNOT KILL THE SOUL. Since a man can kill the body but not the soul, that should prove to you that we have a spirit that lives on after the death of the body.

God CAN kill the body and the spirit, but does not kill our spirits. Our spirits live on; some go to heaven and some to prison; and in the end, some to be tormented day and night without rest.

The fact is that these verses plainly tell you that the soul does die if the person does not receive eternal life from Jesus Christ. Just denying this will not change what the Bible says.

The scriptures tell us that we die physically. Of course, we die physically.

 

[godrulz]

I see that as a use of the word, "soul," in the vernacular. In other words, it's like saying, "How many souls were in the meeting last night?" Men are living souls. We have a spirit, live in a body and are a living soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body was formed from the dust in the ground. The spirit was added from God's Breath. When Adam became alive, he was then called: "a living soul." He is a living person.

The term, "soul-death," is meaningless, since it's redundant.

Soul has a range of meanings, including the immaterial personality of man. It can and does refer to the whole person (synecdoche)....many souls were lost at sea...the soul that sins....

 

[Aimiel]

How do you not get the message that souls die from Ezekiel 18:4 which says "the soul who sins shall die"? How did you miss the fact that the soul can be destroyed when you read Matt 10:28 which says "...who can destroy both body and soul..."?

The fact is that these verses plainly tell you that the soul does die if the person does not receive eternal life from Jesus Christ. Just denying this will not change what the Bible says.

You are the one in denial, bub. =(

 

[Timotheos]

You are the one in denial, bub. =(

Typical. Read the verses.

 

[doloresistere]

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

How do you torment a spirit with burning sulfur? What happens after the sulfur burns out? Why do you not see how silly it is to take these verses in a literal manner?

 

[Aimiel]

Because God described the torments that BODIES and SOULS will have for ever and ever:

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[God's Truth]

How do you torment a spirit with burning sulfur? What happens after the sulfur burns out? Why do you not see how silly it is to take these verses in a literal manner?

The time when people are thrown in the lake of fire, it will be after the resurrection. The people thrown in the lake of fire will have immortal bodies from the resurrection.

 

[Timotheos]

The time when people are thrown in the lake of fire, it will be after the resurrection. The people thrown in the lake of fire will have immortal bodies from the resurrection.

According to the Bible, the Lake of Fire is the second death. The people thrown in the lake of fire will not have immortal bodies and the Bible does not say that they will have immortal bodies. According to the Bible, the wicked will perish and will be no more.

 

[God's Truth]

According to the Bible, the Lake of Fire is the second death. The people thrown in the lake of fire will not have immortal bodies and the Bible does not say that they will have immortal bodies. According to the Bible, the wicked will perish and will be no more.

I do not agree with you the Bible says the wicked will be raised too. What is raised is not what is sown. What is raised is imperishable. After we are raised, we will go before the Great White Throne Judgment. How do people die in the lake of fire if they are in immortal bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Since death is in the lake of fire, how are people going to die? Since they have immortal bodies they cannot die anyway.

 

[Krsto]

I do not agree with you the Bible says the wicked will be raised too. What is raised is not what is sown. What is raised is imperishable. After we are raised, we will go before the Great White Throne Judgment. How do people die in the lake of fire if they are in immortal bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Since death is in the lake of fire, how are people going to die? Since they have immortal bodies they cannot die anyway.

Perhaps "what is sown is perishable" refers to natural decay. What is raised is not subject to natural decay, but that wouldn't keep God from destroying it by other means.

 

[Krsto]

Because God described the torments that BODIES and SOULS will have for ever and ever:

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

According to those scriptures the beast and false prophet are tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say anything about how long the others are tormented and one would have to conclude it's temporal since he makes a point that only the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

 

[God's Truth]

Perhaps "what is sown is perishable" refers to natural decay. What is raised is not subject to natural decay, but that wouldn't keep God from destroying it by other means.

I know how hard it must be to come to give up your false doctrines, but imperishable is imperishable.

Paul also says, "...the mortal with immortality."

You just cannot get around that one can you.

 

[God's Truth]

According to those scriptures the beast and false prophet are tormented day and night forever. It doesn't say anything about how long the others are tormented and one would have to conclude it's temporal since he makes a point that only the beast and false prophet are tormented forever.

According to the scriptures, the people who worship the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, THEY TOO WILL be tormented with burning sulfur, there will BE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,

14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

14:11 ...There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

 

[Krsto]

I know how hard it must be to come to give up your false doctrines, but imperishable is imperishable.

Paul also says, "...the mortal with immortality."

You just cannot get around that one can you.

the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He's not saying all men will become immortal, only Christians, unless you think he's preaching Universalism and includes non-Christians in "we shall be changed."

Immortality is granted to Christians only:

Rom. 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Sorry to disappoint you. I realize you thought you had a good argument. Maybe next time.

 

[Krsto]

According to the scriptures, the people who worship the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, THEY TOO WILL be tormented with burning sulfur, there will BE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,

14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

14:11 ...There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Assuming this isn't talking about judgement in this life. If you look at apocalyptic literature in the bible you will find several times where a future earthly judgement is depicted by things going on in the heavenlies. In our culture we have a hard time understanding that but the Jews would have understood.

 

[God's Truth]

the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He's not saying all men will become immortal, only Christians, unless you think he's preaching Universalism and includes non-Christians in "we shall be changed."

Don't bring in Universalism. I speak of torment forever in the lake of fire, so how do you get Universalism

You have NOT proven that only Christians are raised with immortal bodies.

t

Immortality is granted to Christians only:

Rom. 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Sorry to disappoint you. I realize you thought you had a good argument. Maybe next time.

It is immortality in eternal life, for the Christian; Immortality in condemnation for those who have done evil.

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


You have not shown that the wicked will rise with their same body.

1 Corinthians 15:38 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

 

[God's Truth]

Assuming this isn't talking about judgement in this life. If you look at apocalyptic literature in the bible you will find several times where a future earthly judgement is depicted by things going on in the heavenlies. In our culture we have a hard time understanding that but the Jews would have understood.

I have shown you with scripture that you were wrong when you said that scripture does not say people will be tormented day and night without rest.

As for you saying the Jews would have understood...that is a ridiculous statement considering.

 

[Krsto]

Don't bring in Universalism. I speak of torment forever in the lake of fire, so how do you get Universalism

You have NOT proven that only Christians are raised with immortal bodies.

It is immortality in eternal life, for the Christian; Immortality in condemnation for those who have done evil.

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

You have not shown that the wicked will rise with their same body.

1 Corinthians 15:38 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

Universalists believe non-Christians get what Christians get. You are lumping in everybody under "given immortality."

I never said the wicked will rise with their same body. I said they aren't immortal and they body they do rise with will be destroyed. "Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Mt. 10:28

What I have proven is immortality is granted to Christians, not everybody. The idea all are born with immortal souls that must live on somewhere after death comes from Plato, not the bible.

 

[God's Truth]

Universalists believe non-Christians get what Christians get. You are lumping in everybody under "given immortality."

I never said the wicked will rise with their same body. I said they aren't immortal and they body they do rise with will be destroyed. "Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Mt. 10:28

That scripture says God is ABLE to destroy both the soul and the body in hell. Does not mean He will.

What I have proven is immortality is granted to Christians, not everybody. The idea all are born with immortal souls that must live on somewhere after death comes from Plato, not the bible.

I have scripture that says what happens to the dead that are raised. You are making up things about the wicked who die and are raised.

 

[Krsto]

I have shown you with scripture that you were wrong when you said that scripture does not say people will be tormented day and night without rest.

As for you saying the Jews would have understood...that is a ridiculous statement considering.

It doesn't say all people will have no rest, it says those who take the mark of the beast. Who is that? What about the non-Christians who don't live during the time of the beast? Do you believe the beast exists throughout the NT era and all non-Christians are taking his mark? You would have to in order to conclude the verse is talking about all non-Christians suffering eternally.

It's not ridiculous at all to understand a form of literature they were familiar with but that we are not familiar with. That's just good hermeneutics. It's called the Principle of First Audience. What was God saying to them? We must first understand the way they would have understood it if we want to draw understanding ourselves. That's what exegesis is all about. Drawing meaning from, rather than reading meaning into, the scriptures.

Apocalyptic literature, of which Revelation is included, and some of the OT prophets, has distinct ways of describing things that will happen on earth. We do well to learn about it if we are going to use Revelation to teach anything at all.