God's Truth
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Why can you not grasp that to perish is to be in torment day and night for ever?
To perish is to be away from God's love.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Why can you not grasp that to perish is to be in torment day and night for ever?
To perish is to be away from God's love.
Apparently not. Where did you get YOUR Bible from? It seems to have major problems. I read the NIV, ESV, NLT and NASB, mainly.
And why do you quote verses that do not say the wicked will go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever and then demand that they mean the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever? How do you think that is going to work? Its as if you said to me Joshua's Father's name is Jack, because the Bible says Joshua is the son of Nun.
And it is not necessary to be disagreeable.
Because perish does not mean "Not perish, but be in torment day and night forever, instead of perishing".
But I'll listen to your reasoning on this. Walk me through this, my brother!
God's Truth
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You make me glad to bother posting here, even if we do not agree. I am glad that you do not judge me as condemned, as many do when I do not agree with them.
I tell you, you could have convinced me that the dead do not have eternal punishment and are not tortured day and night for ever and ever, but even one scripture of God is powerful and true.
I cannot disregard what is said in Revelation 14:9-11.
Who is ignoring it? It is a simple verse if you understand the nature of death (separation vs cessation) and the distinction between physical, spiritual, eternal/second death.
The Revelation series of verses contradict your view. You get around it by making literal things figurative.
We honestly cannot help you and your bad hermeneutic.
Aimiel
Well-known member
:thumb:
Rom. 4-5 is about justification by grace through faith apart from works. It is consistent with two destinies for people whom God will not destroy because they are in the image of God (defaced, not erased).
If the spirit of man lives forever (different than Platonic immortality of the soul), then two destinies are necessary. So, your wrong view of soul and death and punishment/destruction leads to a wrong view of hell/lake of fire. The bottom line is the biblical evidence which you are selective about and sloppy in exegesis/proof texting.
There is a reason your view is not the biblical, historical, orthodox view for 2000 years (yes, some held to your heresy, but they are wrong and often non-Christian groups). Your view is a sign of false doctrine, heresy, compromise, not truth.
Reading your doctrine INTO scripture is called "Eisegesis". Deriving doctrine OUT OF scripture is called "Exegesis". Exegesis is proper hermeneutics. Eisegesis is not.
Get out Romans 5 and read this (I'm using ESV):
Sin came into the through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all because all sinned...the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation...because of one man's trespass, death reigned.. But just as one tresspass led to condemnation (Paul is talking about death), one act of righteousness (Christ's) leads to justification and life for all men...so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
IF you read the words and get a doctrine from the words of the Bible (exegesis, proper hermeneutics) you get that death is the result of sin and eternal life is the result of Jesus Christ's obedience.
If you start with your doctrine and redefine the words to fit your doctrine (eisegesis, improper hermeneutics), you "know" that the condemnation is eternal torment in hell, so when this chapter talks about death, death doesn't mean death, and Paul's point is destroyed.
Just read the Bible and accept what it says, rather than the tradition of men.
They said to Columbus, "There is a reason your view that the world is round is not the historical view that has been held for 2000 years, yes some hold to your heresy, but they are wrong because they believe that the world is not flat like we do."
Get out Romans 5 and read this (I'm using ESV):
Sin came into the through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all because all sinned...the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation...because of one man's trespass, death reigned.. But just as one tresspass led to condemnation (Paul is talking about death), one act of righteousness (Christ's) leads to justification and life for all men...so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
IF you read the words and get a doctrine from the words of the Bible (exegesis, proper hermeneutics) you get that death is the result of sin and eternal life is the result of Jesus Christ's obedience.
If you start with your doctrine and redefine the words to fit your doctrine (eisegesis, improper hermeneutics), you "know" that the condemnation is eternal torment in hell, so when this chapter talks about death, death doesn't mean death, and Paul's point is destroyed.
Just read the Bible and accept what it says, rather than the tradition of men.
They said to Columbus, "There is a reason your view that the world is round is not the historical view that has been held for 2000 years, yes some hold to your heresy, but they are wrong because they believe that the world is not flat like we do."
God's Truth
New member
Soul sleep believers quote Genesis 3:19 and claim if we do not believe like them it means we do not believe God when he says we will die. However, we do die physically, and there is a spiritual death, a separation from God. Through Jesus, we are reconciled to God.
Do you have the scripture reference for a "spiritual death" being something different from "death death"? Do you have the scriptures that say "death is a separation from God"?
Do you know that I've checked many times, and the the term "spiritual death" does not occur in the Bible? And the Bible never once says "Death does not mean death but actually a separation".
I'm sorry, but I get a lot of flack from people who believe in ECT because they claim that I don't believe the Bible, so when you make claims, they should be supported by scripture.
Edit to add: I don't believe that death is "soul sleep". I believe that death is death, the condition of not being alive and conscious.
You essentially believe in soul sleep which teaches one is not conscious after death. It is a sleep (metaphor) since you believe they will awake at resurrection for judgment/annihilation?
Many principles and concepts are biblical and taught in Scripture even if a phrase or specific semantics are not used (e.g. trinity).
The Bible does not have to say 'death is separation' or Jesus is fully God, fully man for it to be true.
Many principles and concepts are biblical and taught in Scripture even if a phrase or specific semantics are not used (e.g. trinity).
The Bible does not have to say 'death is separation' or Jesus is fully God, fully man for it to be true.
God's Truth
New member
Because of sin, we die a physical death; because of sin, we are separated from God. We have a spirit so of course we are separated spiritually and not just physically.
Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
Where did I ever say death does not mean death? You have to stay closer to what is said, or you will be off track.
Everything I believe is in the scriptures.
There are people who disobeyed and in their spirits went to prison, see 1 Peter 3:18-19. There are others who went were Abraham was in the spirit, Luke 16:22.
You do not believe in the life of the spirit. You believe we die and no longer exist. You have a doctrine of death. I would love to tell you more about the life of the spirit in the hopes of persuading you to the truth about it.
Thank you Godrulz;
I believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man. Thank you very much for attempting to imply that I do not believe this. I guess you will try anything to make it seem like my belief is not biblical. I do not believe, nor have I ever said that death is sleep. So take your opinion that I believe in so called "soul sleep" and go away. I know for sure that dead people are not conscious. I know that dead people are not asleep. That only leaves "dead" as the condition that dead people are in. You are making this much harder than you need to. People die, dead people are dead, Jesus (who is fully God and fully man) is able to raise the dead to life. This does NOT mean that the dead are merely asleep. If it did, then I could raise the dead too.
I merely believe what the Bible says, and I do not believe in all of the extra non-biblical phoney baloney that has gotten added to the Bible over the years.
Jesus said "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
There is no reason not to believe Jesus, that body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna aka "hell". You say a principle can be "biblical" even if it isn't specifically spelled out in the Bible. Perhaps it can, but a principle CAN'T be "Biblical" if it contradicts what is written in the Bible. The principle that people are NOT destroyed in Gehenna but kept conscious forever in torment in Gehenna directly contradicts the words of Jesus.
God's Truth
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Is being 'destroyed' only about death to nonexistence?
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Holy Bible doesn't describe anyone being destroyed in the Lake of Fire, but rather tormented for ever and ever.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Men are described as being tormented for ever and ever. Their 'destruction' is eternal. They are given eternal conscious torment and that is their destruction. There is no reason to assume that men, who are created beings, have any different punishment in the Lake of Fire than the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet, who are all created beings. Death and Hell are also created beings... else why should they need to be tormented for ever and ever in the Lake of Fire? Death is an enemy of God and will be placed at His Feet.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Hebrews 10:13
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
God doesn't simply put anyone or anything 'out-of-existence' by snapping His Fingers. He gives them what they deserve. When He judges the entire Universe and pronounces His sentence there will not be one single soul who will argue with His Judgments. They are perfectly just and when we stand in judgment and see and know everything that happened, we will agree with God's judgment. "There, but for the grace of God go I," will be what we are all thinking. We will thank God for being so gracious. We will rejoice in His Judgments.
Psalm 58:10
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Men are described as being tormented for ever and ever. Their 'destruction' is eternal. They are given eternal conscious torment and that is their destruction. There is no reason to assume that men, who are created beings, have any different punishment in the Lake of Fire than the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet, who are all created beings. Death and Hell are also created beings... else why should they need to be tormented for ever and ever in the Lake of Fire? Death is an enemy of God and will be placed at His Feet.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Hebrews 10:13
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
God doesn't simply put anyone or anything 'out-of-existence' by snapping His Fingers. He gives them what they deserve. When He judges the entire Universe and pronounces His sentence there will not be one single soul who will argue with His Judgments. They are perfectly just and when we stand in judgment and see and know everything that happened, we will agree with God's judgment. "There, but for the grace of God go I," will be what we are all thinking. We will thank God for being so gracious. We will rejoice in His Judgments.
Psalm 58:10
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Huh? I know you are trinitarian and did not imply you denied this. I was making a valid point/analogy in principle.
Touchy, touchy. Just because your view of hell/soul is JW/Armstrong does NOT mean your Christology is.
doloresistere
New member
Can you find any verse in the bible that speaks of being tormented forever and ever other than this verse in Revelation? Do you believe everything in Revelation is literal? If not, why not? Doesn't that tell you something. But even if you take this verse literally, it doesn't speak of men being tormented forever and ever. It speaks of the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet as being tormented forever and ever.
Yes, the Devil, Antichrist, False Prophet are tormented forever, but the unregenerate are also said to end up with the same fate tormented day and night forever and ever (they arrive 1000 years after AC/FP have been there and they are still there conscious).
Truth is found in one verse whether repeated 1x or 1000x. Other non-Revelation verses also support the conscious separation concept. There is also nothing in the context that would make this comment figurative. I don't see you saying the return of Christ, glories of heaven, etc. are also figurative in the book. If they are symbols, what are they symbolic of other than conscious torment?! The reality is also better (heaven) or worse (hell) than the limited descriptors.