Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[not4sure]

Edwards, Jonathan, The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners

1. If we consider the infinite evil and heinousness of sin in general, it is not unjust in God to inflict what punishment is deserved; because the very notion of deserving any punishment is, that it may be justly inflicted. A deserved punishment and a just punishment are the same thing. To say that one deserves such a punishment, and yet to say that he does not justly deserve it, is a contradiction; and if he justly deserves it, then it may be justly inflicted.

Every crime or fault deserves a greater or less punishment, in proportion as the crime itself is greater or less. If any fault deserves punishment, then so much the greater the fault, so much the greater is the punishment deserved. The faulty nature of any thing is the formal ground and reason of its desert of punishment; and therefore the more any thing hath of this nature, the more punishment it deserves. And therefore the terribleness of the degree of punishment, let it be never be so terrible, is no argument against the justice of it, if the proportion does but hold between the heinousness of the crime and the dreadfulness of the punishment; so that if there be any such thing as a fault infinitely heinous, it will follow that it is just to inflict a punishment for it that is infinitely dreadful.

A crime is more or less heinous, according as we are under greater or less obligations to the contrary. This is self-evident; because it is herein that the criminalness or faultiness of any thing consists, that it is contrary to what we are obliged or bound to, or what ought to be in us. So the faultiness of one being hating another, is in proportion to his obligation to love him. The crime of one being despising and casting contempt on another, is proportionably more or less heinous, as he was under greater or less obligations to honour him. The fault of disobeying another, is greater or less, as any one is under greater or less obligations to obey him. And therefore if there be any being that we are under infinite obligations to love, and honour, and obey, the contrary towards him must be infinitely faulty.

Our obligation to love, honour, and obey any being, is in proportion to his loveliness, honourableness, and authority; for that is the very meaning of the words. When we say any one is very lovely, it is the same as to say, that he is one very much to be loved. Or if we say such a one is more honourable than another, the meaning of the words is, that he is one that we are more obliged to honour. If we say any one has great authority over us, it is the same as to say, that he has great right to our subjection and obedience.

But God is a being infinitely lovely, because he hath infinite excellency and beauty. To have infinite excellency and beauty, is the same thing as to have infinite loveliness. He is a being of infinite greatness, majesty, and glory; and therefore he is infinitely honourable. He is infinitely exalted above the greatest potentates of the earth, and highest angels in heaven; and therefore he is infinitely more honourable than they. His authority over us is infinite; and the ground of his right to our obedience is infinitely strong; for he is infinitely worthy to be obeyed himself, and we have an absolute, universal, and infinite dependence upon him.

So that sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous, and so deserving of infinite punishment.- Nothing is more agreeable to the common sense of mankind, than that sins committed against any one, must be proportionably heinous to the dignity of the being offended and abused; as it is also agreeable to the word of God, I Samuel 2:25. "If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him;" (i.e. shall judge him, and inflict a finite punishment, such as finite judges can inflict) "but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall entreat for him?" This was the aggravation of sin that made Joseph afraid of it. Genesis 39:9. "How shall I commit this great wickedness, and sin against God?" This was the aggravation of David's sin, in comparison of which he esteemed all others as nothing, because they were infinitely exceeded by it. Psalm 51:4. "Against thee, thee only have I sinned."-The eternity of the punishment of ungodly men renders it infinite: and it renders it no more than infinite; and therefore renders no more than proportionable to the heinousness of what they are guilty of.

If there be any evil or faultiness in sin against God, there is certainly infinite evil: for if it be any fault at all, it has an infinite aggravation, viz. that it is against an infinite object. If it be ever so small upon other accounts, yet if it be any thing, it has one infinite dimension; and so is an infinite evil. Which may be illustrated by this: if we suppose a thing to have infinite length, but no breadth and thickness, (a mere mathematical line,) it is nothing: but if it have any breadth and thickness, though never so small, and infinite length, the quantity of it is infinite; it exceeds the quantity of any thing, however broad, thick, and long, wherein these dimensions are all finite.

So that the objections made against the infinite punishment of sin, from the necessity, or rather previous certainty, of the futurition of sin, arising from the unavoidable original corruption of nature, if they argue any thing, argue against any faultiness at all: for if this necessity or certainty leaves any evil at all in sin, that fault must be infinite by reason of the infinite object.

 

[Timotheos]

Edwards, Jonathan, The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners

First of all, I want you to understand that I am not saying that it is unjust for God to punish the wicked. I am saying that He does. But what does that punishment consist of, according to the Bible? According to the Bible the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23) Also, the Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more. (Psalm 37:10 and 20, look them up) Jesus said that those who do not repent will perish (Luke 13:3 and 5) and will be destroyed. (Matthew 7:13 and Matthew 10:28) Paul agrees with Jesus because he wrote that the penalty is destruction, and not just temporal destruction, he wrote that the destruction is eternal. The penalty is to be destroyed and remain destroyed forever. (2 Thessalonians 1:9) This is the penalty for sin throughout the Bible. Ezekiel said that the soul who sins will die. (Ezekiel 18:4) Isaiah said in Chapter 66 that when the Lord returns, he will slay the wicked and their corpses will be eaten by worms and burned. Read the whole chapter and take careful notice of the context. Malachi said that the wicked will be burnt to ash, and that ash will be blown away. Read about that in Malachi 4. John wrote that those who do not believe in the Son of God will perish, read John 3:16. So you can see from this the seriousness of sin and what the penalty for that sin is.

Now, Jonathan Edwards says that serious sin requires serious punishment. I agree with him on that, although I do not agree with much of what Jon Edwards wrote. For some crimes, we have a small punishment. If I park in the wrong place, I get a ticket and have to pay a fine. If I drink and drive, I have to spend the night in jail and pay a larger fine. If I kill someone when I am driving drunk, I have to go to prison for a long time. If I murder someone, I have spend the rest of my life in prison. If I murder a lot of people, they give me the worst punishment of all, which is to be destroyed. The ultimate punishment is to lose your life, and this is what the Bible says the punishment for sin is. I believe the Bible. Jon Edwards says the punishment for sin is to be burned alive for an eternity. The bible does not say this, so I believe the Bible rather than Jon Edward's mad imagination.

 

[Aimiel]

So your claim that Jesus and the Angels talk about ECT is false.

Hardly... rather it's your denial of their descriptions which bears false witness of them.

You have to look at the scriptures in order to "weigh all of Scripture".

So, why is it you don't do that?

Since there is no verse in the Bible anywhere that says the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented forever,

You've skipped the Scriptures that I've posted, without even explaining why you don't believe they say what they do say: that ECT is real.

You can't produce any evidence for your doctrine, but you expect me to believe that all of the lack of evidence you produce adds up to evidence of the doctrine that you can't find any scriptural support for?

Sorry, but ignoring Scripture isn't allowed, if you do wish to weigh all of Scripture.

Isn't the more likely explanation that you can't produce any evidence because there is none, but you don't want to discard the doctrine of Eternal Torment?

I would like to say that ECT isn't the fate of anyone, but I have to defer to the Truths found in Scripture. Pretending that the fate described isn't really described simply isn't reasonable.

 

[Timotheos]

Hardly... rather it's your denial of their descriptions which bears false witness of them.So, why is it you don't do that?You've skipped the Scriptures that I've posted, without even explaining why you don't believe they say what they do say: that ECT is real.Sorry, but ignoring Scripture isn't allowed, if you do wish to weigh all of Scripture.I would like to say that ECT isn't the fate of anyone, but I have to defer to the Truths found in Scripture. Pretending that the fate described isn't really described simply isn't reasonable.

I do not deny scripture, your empty accusations are getting old. I haven't skipped any scriptures you've posted, I've been diligent on this thread to answer any objections, to the point of "ad nauseum" as one of your cronies put it. Which is it? Have I ignored your proof-texts or has this discussion gone on TOO long, since I answer all of your proof-texts? On the slim chance that I missed something, which text do feel that I have ignored? (Honestly, I could talk about five dozen texts that you haven't explained away, so the accusation sticks to you better than it sticks to me.)

 

[Aimiel]

I do not deny scripture, your empty accusations are getting old. I haven't skipped any scriptures you've posted, I've been diligent on this thread to answer any objections, to the point of "ad nauseum" as one of your cronies put it. Which is it? Have I ignored your proof-texts or has this discussion gone on TOO long, since I answer all of your proof-texts? On the slim chance that I missed something, which text do feel that I have ignored? (Honestly, I could talk about five dozen texts that you haven't explained away, so the accusation sticks to you better than it sticks to me.)

I don't explain away anything, other than the fact that the Lake of Fire, where all devils and sinners will be tormented for ever and ever is described as: "the second death." Obviously God wouldn't awaken anyone from non-existence to cause them to enter non-existence again. He told us what will happen... ECT. If you don't see that in Scripture, you simply aren't looking at Scripture honestly. Jesus and the angels would have said that sinners would no longer exist, were that the case. Since it isn't, they described what will happen to them. Ignoring that fate is your choice, but it isn't the right choice. God wants us to know Truth, not deny It.

 

[Timotheos]

I don't explain away anything, other than the fact that the Lake of Fire, where all devils and sinners will be tormented for ever and ever is described as: "the second death." Obviously God wouldn't awaken anyone from non-existence to cause them to enter non-existence again. He told us what will happen... ECT. If you don't see that in Scripture, you simply aren't looking at Scripture honestly. Jesus and the angels would have said that sinners would no longer exist, were that the case. Since it isn't, they described what will happen to them. Ignoring that fate is your choice, but it isn't the right choice. God wants us to know Truth, not deny It.

Believe whatever you wish. You say the second death is not death at all but eternal conscious torment. And you claim that I deny the truth? You claim that I am not looking at scripture honestly? Obviously God does raise the dead for judgement and then requires the wages of sin from those who have not had their sins forgiven. The wages of sin is death. The lake of fire is the second death. You are denying scripture while you are accusing me of denying scripture. I am not "ignoring my fate", I am reading scripture. I am a bible believing Christian, do you actually believe that Christians go to hell to be eternally tortured too? You are ignoring scripture in your rush to accuse me. You don't know what you are talking about. And you are not acting as a Christian should act in your rush to condemn.

Believe whatever you want to believe. If it comforts you to think of me being tortured in hell, go ahead and believe that. I believe the Bible.

 

[Aimiel]

I am not "ignoring my fate", I am reading scripture. I am a bible believing Christian, do you actually believe that Christians go to hell to be eternally tortured too? You are ignoring scripture in your rush to accuse me. You don't know what you are talking about. And you are not acting as a Christian should act in your rush to condemn.

I never said 'your' fate. Please read your Bible with more care than you read posts on TOL. I said 'that' fate, but never even implied that it might be your fate. I wouldn't do such a thing. I am not 'acting' Christian, I actually AM.

 

[Timotheos]

I never said 'your' fate.

Bull-loney. You said "Ignoring that fate is your choice, but it isn't the right choice. God wants us to know Truth, not deny It." I know what you meant.

Please read your Bible with more care than you read posts on TOL.

You are not really in a position to be able to tell me how to read the Bible. You don't even believe that the wages of sin is death. That's pretty basic stuff.

I said 'that' fate, but never even implied that it might be your fate. I wouldn't do such a thing.

Yes, you did. You talked about a fate involving ETC. and you said ignoring that fate is my choice. You are just denying it now, because I called your bluff.

I am not 'acting' Christian, I actually AM.

I can't tell that from the way you post. Have you ever considered posting according to the fruit of the Holy Spirit? In love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? That way a person could tell if you are Christian.

And you still haven't told me which verse of the Bible you think I am denying. You just keep on repeating that I'm ignoring scripture. I'm not. But if you think I am, TELL ME what verse or verses you think I'm ignoring. I don't believe you really think that I AM ignoring scripture. If you thought I was, you would be happy to post the verse that you say I am ignoring. I think you want to hold onto your doctrine, and falsely accusing me of ignoring scripture seems to you like a good way to hold onto your doctrine of ECT.

 

[Aimiel]

Bull-loney. You said "Ignoring that fate is your choice, but it isn't the right choice. God wants us to know Truth, not deny It." I know what you meant.

Quite obviously you do not.

You are not really in a position to be able to tell me how to read the Bible. You don't even believe that the wages of sin is death. That's pretty basic stuff.

I do, but after this: the judgment.

I can't tell that from the way you post. Have you ever considered posting according to the fruit of the Holy Spirit? In love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? That way a person could tell if you are Christian.

These are fruits of our new spirit, re-created in Christ Jesus.. The Holy Spirit gives us supernatural gifts.

 

[not4sure]

Believe whatever you wish. You say the second death is not death at all but eternal conscious torment. And you claim that I deny the truth? You claim that I am not looking at scripture honestly? Obviously God does raise the dead for judgement and then requires the wages of sin from those who have not had their sins forgiven. The wages of sin is death. The lake of fire is the second death. You are denying scripture while you are accusing me of denying scripture. I am not "ignoring my fate", I am reading scripture. I am a bible believing Christian, do you actually believe that Christians go to hell to be eternally tortured too? You are ignoring scripture in your rush to accuse me. You don't know what you are talking about. And you are not acting as a Christian should act in your rush to condemn.

Believe whatever you want to believe. If it comforts you to think of me being tortured in hell, go ahead and believe that. I believe the Bible.

 

[Timotheos]

I do, but after this: the judgment.

And after the judgment this: Eternal life for those who are in Christ, The second death for those who are not in Christ.

These are fruits of our new spirit, re-created in Christ Jesus.. The Holy Spirit gives us supernatural gifts.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5:22-23
Please try to practice these while you wait for a supernatural gift.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes "Doctor" Steve. That is helpful. It's more helpful than what you usually post. Remember Galations 5:22-23, please.

 

[Aimiel]

And after the judgment this: Eternal life for those who are in Christ, The second death for those who are not in Christ.

Agreed, except for the fact that from what Scripture describes as the second death: being cast into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for ever and ever, is not what you accept.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5:22-23
Please try to practice these while you wait for a supernatural gift.

I produce those, even while operating in the supernatural. It is only natural for a Christian with a re-created spirit to produce the fruit that spirit brings. The Holy Spirit does supernatural things to glorify The Lord.

 

[Timotheos]

Agreed, except for the fact that from what Scripture describes as the second death: being cast into the Lake of Fire to be tormented for ever and ever, is not what you accept.

I accept and agree with what scripture says. Here is the scripture you are referring to. (Is THIS the scripture you have been claiming that I don't agree with???)
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I'm not seeing eternal conscious torment for all the unsaved in verse 10. This just says "The devil", "the Beast" (with seven heads and ten horns, literal??? IDK!) and the false proophet.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

I'm not seeing eternal conscious torment in verse 11, either.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I'm not seeing ECT in verse 12, either. Judgment, yes. ETC, no. The results of the judgment are not stated.

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

I'm not seeing ECT in verse 13 either. Judgment, yes. ECT? No.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

I'm not seeing ECT in verse 14 either. And this is the death knell for your false doctrine. John specifically says what the lake of fire is, and it is not ECT. It is the second death. Death is not ECT, no matter how much you want it to be.

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

There is no ECT in verse 15 either. As John said in verse 14, the lake of fire is the second death, not ECT. And as you should know by know, this makes sense since the wages of sin is death, not ECT.

Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death, the Bible specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, which is what you do not accept. I believe and accept what the Bible says and you do not.

 

[Aimiel]

I do accept that the ECT of the Lake of Fire is called, "Second Death." I do not accept that people are zapped out of existence by heat. God would simply not awaken them, if that were their fate. Why should Jesus and angels mention ECT if there were none? They wouldn't. Obviously: it's real and will take place, no matter how much you try to deny the Truth of it.

 

[freelight]

shake and bake

shake and bake

Jon Edwards says the punishment for sin is to be burned alive for an eternity. The bible does not say this, so I believe the Bible rather than Jon Edward's mad imagination.

That tactic worked maybe in his religious revival circuit days, when sinners fell to the ground convulsing in fear of the wrath of God whose torment knew no end...enough to perhaps get a few 'conversions'.

Edwards, Jonathan, The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners

Jonathan Edwards:

So that sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous, and so deserving of infinite punishment.- Nothing is more agreeable to the common sense of mankind, than that sins committed against any one, must be proportionably heinous to the dignity of the being offended and abused; as it is also agreeable to the word of God, I Samuel 2:25. "If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him;" (i.e. shall judge him, and inflict a finite punishment, such as finite judges can inflict) "but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall entreat for him?" This was the aggravation of sin that made Joseph afraid of it. Genesis 39:9. "How shall I commit this great wickedness, and sin against God?" This was the aggravation of David's sin, in comparison of which he esteemed all others as nothing, because they were infinitely exceeded by it. Psalm 51:4. "Against thee, thee only have I sinned."-The eternity of the punishment of ungodly men renders it infinite: and it renders it no more than infinite; and therefore renders no more than proportionable to the heinousness of what they are guilty of.

If there be any evil or faultiness in sin against God, there is certainly infinite evil: for if it be any fault at all, it has an infinite aggravation, viz. that it is against an infinite object. If it be ever so small upon other accounts, yet if it be any thing, it has one infinite dimension; and so is an infinite evil. Which may be illustrated by this: if we suppose a thing to have infinite length, but no breadth and thickness, (a mere mathematical line,) it is nothing: but if it have any breadth and thickness, though never so small, and infinite length, the quantity of it is infinite; it exceeds the quantity of any thing, however broad, thick, and long, wherein these dimensions are all finite.

I think Jonathan is conflating or stretching the term 'infinite' beyond its usual approximations, to support his own inducive logic to bolster his emphasis on 'infinite punishment' or the idea that there could be 'infinite sin' which boggles the mind really. First of all, only 'God' is infinite, and its a tall order to assume a finite being can go on sinning infinitely to effect an infinite punishment of some kind. Since 'God' is infinite alone, the provision of salvation for all souls is 'infinite' - how do you like that? Did you forget to consider that God's LOVE is INFINITE? Is that which is 'infinite', greater than that which is 'finite'?

In all your assumptions of God's punishments, do not forget that justice is always tempered by mercy, because God is LOVE. That Love is infinite.





pj

 

[Timotheos]

I do accept that the ECT of the Lake of Fire is called, "Second Death."

You accept that it is "called" the second death, but you do not agree with the Bible that it IS the second death? Is that true?

I do not accept that people are zapped out of existence by heat. God would simply not awaken them, if that were their fate.

How do you know what God would do? According to the Bible, God does awaken them from death and then they go to the second death.

Why should Jesus and angels mention ECT if there were none? They wouldn't.

Jesus and the angels DIDN'T mention ECT. You have never been able to show me where it is that you think Jesus and the angels mention ECT.

They wouldn't.

And they didn't.

Obviously: it's real and will take place, no matter how much you try to deny the Truth of it.

I am not denying the truth of what you say. I'm saying that you are not telling me the truth. Obviously the Bible does not say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever when they are dead. If the Bible said such a thing, I'm sure that you would be quoting that on every post. You are denying the truth that the wicked perish and are no more. Why do you deny what the Bible clearly teaches? And why do you ignore Psalm 37:10 and 20 every time I bring them up? The wicked perish and are no more, they are resurrected on the day of judgment, to be judged, and then they are sent to their second death where they perish and are no more. This is the truth according to the Bible no matter how much you try to deny the truth of it.

 

[freelight]

essence and manifestation......

essence and manifestation......

And after the judgment this: Eternal life for those who are in Christ, The second death for those who are not in Christ.

Consequently, those who embrace sin wholly and reject 'God' totally....suffer 'death' in its most complete and final sense, if this 'death' (as the 'second death') is final and 'total' in its effect. (assuming disintegration of the soul, its extinction). Naturally those reunited with 'God' enjoy eternal life and are partakers of the divine nature (immortality). A soul 'fused' or made one with that nature, obviously can never die.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5:22-23
Please try to practice these while you wait for a supernatural gift.

Indeed, - one abiding in the Spirit will naturally exude the 'fruit' of the Spirit, as proofs of its own presence. Spiritual gifts or powers are additional 'anointings' for service or ministry, - these are activated when needed, as the Spirit wills. What is most essential however is the 'fruit' of Spirit, since it matures within the soul to beautifully reflect and express Spirit. It is this 'fruit' and the demonstration of 'love' that actually wins over or converts hearts to 'God', showing the discipleship of the Christ within.

While signs, wonders and miracles are wonderful displays of God's power, history shows us they are not always the best means of converting sinners, since those manifestations come and go. Therefore the maturing of the divine nature in the soul and that communion (its nurturing) is most essential for transforming the 'person', to be a temple for God's indwelling. Signs, wonders and miracles,....of course often naturally follow



pj

 

[freelight]

Justice upholds the ultimate good of all........

Justice upholds the ultimate good of all........

Timotheos to Aimiel:

Believe whatever you want to believe. If it comforts you to think of me being tortured in hell, go ahead and believe that. I believe the Bible.

Its hard to believe anyone wanting any sentient being to be tormented forever, much less assume that 'Love' would impose or wish such a 'fate' upon any of its creations. How heinous. It is further so low, foul and primitive on any intellectual or spiritual level of soul, to engross oneself with this caricature of a god of wrath whose justice is not satisfied but with endless torture. It boggles the mind how a few passages (figuratively speaking) could be made into an absolute doctrine infecting a belief-potential of such depravity.

All the while the supremacy of God's love and wisdom prevails, in effecting the most perfect justice and mercy for all beings.


pj

 

[Aimiel]

Its hard to believe anyone wanting any sentient being to be tormented forever, much less assume that 'Love' would impose or wish such a 'fate' upon any of its creations. How heinous. It is further so low, foul and primitive on any intellectual or spiritual level of soul, to engross oneself with this caricature of a god of wrath whose justice is not satisfied but with endless torture. It boggles the mind how a few passages (figuratively speaking) could be made into an absolute doctrine infecting a belief-potential of such depravity.

All the while the supremacy of God's love and wisdom prevails, in effecting the most perfect justice and mercy for all beings.

The idol you worship is the god of your imagination. It doesn't change Who and What The One True God is, it only shows that you're incapable of believing that He is true to His Word.