Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Rosenritter]

Paranoia will destroy ya. :chuckle:

I can't work up a good mad over people like you, Rosie. A bit of annoyance at best.

Ah, the old "Christian behaviour" finger pointing. :chuckle:

And how old are you claiming to be? :chew:

Can you quote me saying "Because I say so"? :chew:

My intent is always good. It's your intent that concerns me. You claim one thing and proceed to go about your merry way. I've learned that it is not always possible to communicate with certain people. God's unTruth is one, Meshak is another, Kingdom Rose is another, and you have managed to join that group. Congrats to you.

Unfortunately, your responses above don't carry any sort of commitment. Let me remind you of the way you have responded in past:

Here's an example of the type of question I was asking:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=5029925&viewfull=1#post5029925

Originally Posted by Rosenritter
I'm simply pointing out that your stated beliefs and your actions are inconsistent with each other. You also seemed to call mass abortion both good and evil within the same post. It is written, that "a double minded man is unstable in all his ways." My motive is that if you will at least be consistent, I might then understand you.

And this is your "non-hate railing" response.

Originally Posted by glorydaz
I'm left to think that you're a humanist "wanna be" Christian...

Only a humanist would think of what your evil heart suggests.

Clearly, you haven't a clue of what is in the heart of someone created IN Christ Jesus.

What cult are you? 7 day Adventist? That would be my guess.

Originally Posted by glorydaz
You are exactly like God's UNtruth.

I have never said I support sacrificing babies to devils, and call it a blessing. What kind of a fruit cake are you? Devils, and seances, and sacrificing babies.....are you an Adventist Witch in disguise, or only a regular old flea-bitten wolf in sheep's clothing?

Originally Posted by glorydaz
Mass abortions are a terrible evil that should never be supported or condoned, and I do consider them to be a blessing from God in these end days. It makes no difference whether they are born to "infidels" or not. Yes, I did say infants and children are total innocents until the age they are accountable for their decisions, and No, I would never suggest they should be killed in order to guarantee them a spot in heaven. It takes a real idiot to suggest such a thing.

My stated intent was clear: I want your answer to be consistent, because otherwise I cannot understand you. How can you say that mass abortions are evil but they are a blessing from God?

1) You did say that you believed that babies that die go to heaven, no possibility against this.
2) You did say elsewhere (I am sure) that babies that get too old (how old is not the point) go to hell when they die, to be tormented without end or purpose or reason.
3) Killing a baby who is still "young enough" would by your logic guarantee them a spot in heaven.

Yet you don't suggest that we guarantee that children will go to heaven, you're just fine with some of them being tormented for infinity, because you're unwilling to take the action guaranteed to prevent that.

It doesn't require idiocy to see that by your stated beliefs above, murdering "innocent infants" would guarantee them an eternity of bliss, and no doubt spare some of them from an eternity of torment. It takes anyone with the logical ability to add 1 and 2 and get 3, and the heart to consider that maybe sacrificing their own life for the good of others might have merit.

Moses was willing to let himself be blotted out of the book of life if it might save Israel, so even if one were to be damned for doing so, mass murder of infants would guarantee more for heaven and save untold amounts from damnation. If, that is, one has accepted your premises as true.

I don't think that your actions are consistent with your beliefs. My intent is NOT to get you to start acting on those beliefs. My intent is that you will be willing to reexamine your beliefs, recognizing that true and valid beliefs are such that will always yield proper fruit.

So give up the "acting" that you haven't rail down hatred and accusations. It's not paranoia, that's been your reflex in the past. Please put that aside and recognize the validity of the question I've given to you. If someone were to believe as you and be willing to act on those beliefs, we would have mass murderers believing they were acting out of love for their fellow men. To save those souls of the children from a monster called "God" that would torture them without end if they had been allowed to just get a bit older.

You never gave a satisfactory answer for this apparent contradiction. If one of my assumptions about your beliefs are mistaken (as numbered above) please point out the specific mistake. Give up the name calling and accusation. I've given you a real problem, and I know of some people who DO THINK that we should engage in wars in foreign countries because the death of the infidel children will save them from hell.

Please attempt to answer this question with cool logic. You are welcome to put me to a similar test. Confirm my beliefs, put them on numbered points, and if there is any terrible action that those beliefs would result in, please demonstrate.Then allow me a chance to answer if you have made any mistake in that process.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory, when you continue to make up arguments and assign them to your opponents, when they themselves have not made the argument, then attack that argument because it seems easy for you to do so, THAT is the definition of "straw man."

Yes, and it's always the other guy who does everything wrong, isn't it?

And it's the wonderful and kind, Rosie, that sets us the example, and teaches us what such complexities (as straw man) means. Our saviour in times of great need. How have we survived this long without you on this forum?

 

[Rosenritter]

He fits that mold? :rotfl:

Incredible

Can't do much without your mocking emoticons, eh?

 

[glorydaz]

And this is your "non-hate railing" response.

No, that was my "totally disgusted with this idiot who refuses to listen response".

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes, and it's always the other guy who does everything wrong, isn't it?

And it's the wonderful and kind, Rosie, that sets us the example, and teaches us what such complexities (as straw man) means. Our saviour in times of great need. How have we survived this long without you on this forum?

If I at any time create an argument for you, assign it to you, and then proceed to attack it and mock you and call you heretic cult witch, then you too may call the "straw man" argument with validity.

 

[glorydaz]

Can't do much without your mocking emoticons, eh?

They help for idiots who refuse to listen. :deadhorse:

 

[way 2 go]

I have seen quite a bit of absurdity strutted around in the name of Mid-Acts Dispensationism, such as commands to love one another and to bridle our tongues are not applicable to "us" because "That was written to the JEWS." It usually goes hand in hand with a type of head-headed bullish mentality that thinks it is their right to bully their way through arguments. So far you fit that mold.

thanks

Falsehood. You, Way 2 Go, are a liar. While it is true that you have made such an accusation over and over, you have never backed it up, again, which is evidence that you are a liar and false accuser.

you implied it but never said Jesus lied in luke 16:22-26 but I understand what you meant

Rosenritter;5022640 No, there is serious contradiction between Jesus and the rest of the bible, if that passage uses literal elements

Yes, I have called a Samuel who rose as a spirit from the earth at the bidding of a witch a devil. Nor am I alone in this assessment, as any honest survey would inform you, including well-recognized men of the Reformation. The theological world is of split opinion on this point. I have asked for reasons why one should interpret this phantasm as being the genuine man, and have received none from you.

I see nothing to support your view .

the bible records the truth
the woman saw Samuel ( the bible could have easily said demon but it didn't because he wasn't)
Saul knew that it was Samuel,
Then Samuel said to Saul .( the bible could have easily said the devil said to Saul but it didn't because he wasn't)
Everything Samuel said and predicted was true and came true no lies or deception



1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.”
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

Which Moses and which Elijah, Way 2 Go? Do you mean from the vision? That Jesus himself said was a vision?

Matthew 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Ah, but you say it was not a vision? It would seem you are calling Jesus the liar. You plainly don't believe what he says that he offers for explanation for what they saw.

I believe Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah you don't
and I believe Peter saw Moses and Elijah you don't
I also understand vision in this case means spectacle not apparition.

Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision

vision=ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural):



Luk 1:21 And the people were waiting for Zechariah, and they were wondering at his delay in the temple.
Luk 1:22 And when he came out, he was unable to speak to them, and they realized that he had seen a vision

vision= ὀπτασία
optasia
op-tas-ee'-ah
From a presumed derivative of G3700; visuality, that is, (concretely) an apparition:

 

[way 2 go]

They help for idiots who refuse to listen. :deadhorse:

:chuckle:

 

[Rosenritter]

you implied it but never said Jesus lied in luke 16:22-26 but I understand what you meant

So, let's see this supposed proof, Way 2 Go?

Rosenritter;5022640 No, there is serious contradiction between Jesus and the rest of the bible, if that passage uses literal elements

... and thus the passage in question does not use literal elements, Way 2 Go. Do you just practice acting stupid so as to justify repeating absurd accusations such as "you said Jesus was lying?" Your credibility here is zero.

Do I even need to point out that Jesus is included in the "rest of the Bible" outside of the passage in question? You would have Jesus contradict Jesus. So far, you're scored high on both the liar and hypocrite charts.

the bible records the truth

I am going to assume for the moment that you are going to attempt to show reasons why one should believe that the ghost summoned by the witch was actually the legitimate Samuel, the prophet of God.

the woman saw Samuel ( the bible could have easily said demon but it didn't because he wasn't)

It is irrelevant what the witch saw: The scripture itself tells us that it doesn't matter what form a spirit takes, that it is not to be trusted by its appearancec, as even the devil himself can take the form of an Angel of Light. 11 Corinthians 11:14.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 KJV(13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Saul knew that it was Samuel,

Saul never saw the apparition, and whether he heard the thing speak directly or through the mouth of the medium isn't specified. Whether Saul perceived that it was Samuel or not is irrelevant. Saul had already departed from the Lord, and he is not a trusted prophet in this regard. Besides this, we are told that those who have not a love of the truth, that they shall receive strong delusion, and God will let them beleive a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 KJV
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Isaiah 66:4 KJV
(4) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.



Saul, in seeking after those that consult with devils (that's what it means when it says a person has a familiar spirit) is not in the category of doing that which delights the Lord. Specifically engaging in rebellion (as is the sin of witchcraft) will result in delusion, not truth and enlightenment.

1 Samuel 15:23 KJV
(23) For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Then Samuel said to Saul .( the bible could have easily said the devil said to Saul but it didn't because he wasn't)

The bible could easily add much commentary to many places, but it speaks with few words. The same writer of the book of Samuel didn't feel it necessary to add "the brother of" in front of the name "Goliath" either.

2 Samuel 21:19 KJV
(19) And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

The word in blue aren't from Hebrew, there is no source text for them. You're supposed to already know that this is the brother of by context. Likewise, you're supposed to already know and assume that a witch that summons familiar spirits is going to summon a devil, and that God isn't going to change his mind and grant enlightenment to someone who pursues after witchcraft.

I could ask you, why doesn't the text have a definitive statement "For this was the true Samuel" as inserted commentary? Given the situation, this would seem to be most vital if it was indeed the real Samuel. Your best argument so far is an absence of evidence.

Everything Samuel said and predicted was true and came true no lies or deception

It is not uncommon at all for those who seek after divination to receive dire prophesies that come true. The lie and deception is in the pretense to be the dead prophet.

Did Saul test the spirits here, Way 2 Go?

1 John 4:1-2 KJV
(1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
(2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Obviously a question about Jesus might not be fitting here, but did this spirit ever give praise to the LORD? What did it say when Saul bowed down? Did it say, don't worship me, see thou do it not, I am thy fellow servant, only worship God?

1 Samuel 28:14 KJV
(14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.


What of your discernment? Any spirit of Satan can choose the form it wants, say the words it wants, and they have the power to make their prophesies happen with regards to those who have left the protection of the Almighty God. The Lord has already given these rebels who seek after witchcraft over to their delusions, he is not protecting them any longer. Saul, in this case, especially already had a history of being haunted by evil spirits.

This spirit let Saul bow down before him, and did not give credit to the LORD, it gave no sign that it worshiped or obeyed God. In fact, when acknowledging that the LORD had departed from Saul, then he proceeds to prophesy. When the LORD said not to speak to Saul, this spirit DID speak to Saul. This spirit accepted worship. This spirit was free to do as it willed, because as it announced, the LORD was not protecting Saul any longer.

Is there another point here that you feel you neglected to mention?

I believe Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah you don't

To clarify, I understand that you think of these are the literal person Moses and the literal person Elijah. I understand that these two figures represented Moses and Elijah, a figure for the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah). I allow that God could have raised the originals for this specific purpose but I feel it to be more likely that these parts were played by angels.

and I believe Peter saw Moses and Elijah you don't

No, I believe that Peter saw Moses and Elijah. By "saw" I mean "perceived." Peter would have no idea what Moses and Elijah actually looked like in life - the Hebrews didn't keep graven images or pictures of people. So whatever it was he saw, he perceived Moses and Elijah.

I also understand vision in this case means spectacle not apparition.

The same Greek word used for "vision" when Jesus says "tell the vision to no man" is also used for Peter's vision of the sheet coming down from heaven filled with animals, and the vision where Paul is told by a man to come to Macedonia, and a similar form for the vision in Revelation that John received on the Isle of Patmos. Horama or horasis. The "vision" you referred to of Zacharias uses a different word, optasia.

I understand that you are suggesting that a vision might be real, or have reality, but the other visions I mentioned that used the same Greek word to describe them were all of the type that used symbolism and imagery.

Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision

vision=ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural):

Luk 1:21 And the people were waiting for Zechariah, and they were wondering at his delay in the temple.
Luk 1:22 And when he came out, he was unable to speak to them, and they realized that he had seen a vision

vision= ὀπτασία
optasia
op-tas-ee'-ah
From a presumed derivative of G3700; visuality, that is, (concretely) an apparition:

So I thought I understood your argument, but it just evaporated. I can see how you might make a case that it might be the actual Moses and Elijah, on the premise that a vision might have validity as real (as in the case of Zacharias) but you yourself pointed out that the Greek word for "vision" is entirely different in this case. Words using the same greek for "vision" all seem to be of the symbolic variety. I hadn't thought of looking at that angle before, but that also seems to support my interpretation (that this was a symbolic vision) thus far as well.

Good work? Thanks?

 

[glorydaz]

I see nothing to support your view .

the bible records the truth
the woman saw Samuel ( the bible could have easily said demon but it didn't because he wasn't)
Saul knew that it was Samuel,
Then Samuel said to Saul .( the bible could have easily said the devil said to Saul but it didn't because he wasn't)
Everything Samuel said and predicted was true and came true no lies or deception

Indeed, and the Bible was not shy in saying the Lord had sent an evil spirit to Saul when that was in fact the case-- it caused Saul great misery...moodiness and a desire to kill David --that the evil spirit was upon Saul and then departed from him when David played for him.

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.​

There is something all evil spirits have in common. They offer false hope, they lead people into sin, and away from God. When Samuel was disquieted from his rest, he did not give Saul false hope, he did not make any false promises, he repeated what God had already said, and added that he and his three sons would die in battle....joining him in the land of the dead the next day. There was not one single thing that Samuel said that would show the input or fulfil the desire of any demon.

 

[glorydaz]

I believe Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah you don't
and I believe Peter saw Moses and Elijah you don't
I also understand vision in this case means spectacle not apparition.

Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision

vision=ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural):



Luk 1:21 And the people were waiting for Zechariah, and they were wondering at his delay in the temple.
Luk 1:22 And when he came out, he was unable to speak to them, and they realized that he had seen a vision

vision= ὀπτασία
optasia
op-tas-ee'-ah
From a presumed derivative of G3700; visuality, that is, (concretely) an apparition:

The problem is nothing more than the refusal to believe there is a spiritual realm as well as a physical realm. Just write off all those visions in the Bible and call them optical illusions.

It wasn't really the Lord.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.​

Perhaps Rosie thinks the Lord should have said Moses and Elijah were nothing more than a false vision and divination....a thing of nought.

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.​

Spiritual discernment is required to understand spiritual things.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Indeed, and the Bible was not shy in saying the Lord had sent an evil spirit to Saul when that was in fact the case-- it caused Saul great misery...moodiness and a desire to kill David --that the evil spirit was upon Saul and then departed from him when David played for him.

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.​

There is something all evil spirits have in common. They offer false hope, they lead people into sin, and away from God. When Samuel was disquieted from his rest, he did not give Saul false hope, he did not make any false promises, he repeated what God had already said, and added that he and his three sons would die in battle....joining him in the land of the dead the next day. There was not one single thing that Samuel said that would show the input or fulfil the desire of any demon.

It is because God had instructed the demon what to say.

By the demon saying the truth, does not mean it had to be Samuel speaking.

It will happen more in the end times--

Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?



LA

 

[rstrats]

Rosenritter,
re: "If by 'eternal' you mean for ever and ever..."

Yes, that is what I mean.

 

[KingdomRose]

They help for idiots who refuse to listen. :deadhorse:

Listen to what? I haven't seen anything hopeful and true that you've had to offer. (And would you have dinner with Jesus in that outfit?)

 

[KingdomRose]

The doctrine of eternal conscious torment is insidious, blasphemous, sadistic and 100% pagan. It is not taught in the Bible, and anyone who wants to know the truth about "hell" can find out very quickly.
https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Hell

Has anyone bothered to check out the wonderfully noble site for info about "hell"? Reading over all of y'all's posts I can see that most of you do not know what you're talking about.

 

[KingdomRose]

According the this cult member, Jesus is merely A GOD. Of course she preaches error and knows nothing but error.

Someday you'll be sorry for your blatantly God-dishonoring statements. All of your fantastical ideas will be popped like a pricked balloon. Then you'll remember these conversations.

Jesus is "a god" just like human judges were called "gods" in Scripture, and Jesus brought this to the Pharisees' attention. But you don't understand that, do you?

John 10:31-36: "The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?' The Jews answered him, 'For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' [Jesus objected.] He answered them, 'Has it not been written in your Law, "I said you are gods"? [Psalm 82:6] If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I am the Son of God"?'" (NASB)

Jesus could have made it very clear there that he was God if that is what he was. But he re-iterated the fact that he did not claim to be God, and in fact was "a god" like the human judges of David's Psalm....a powerful, high-ranking individual. Not God.

You are preaching error, goldiedaz. I hope you wake up sometime soon.

 

[KingdomRose]

this from a cultist

Can you say something constructive about the subject instead of calling names? Why don't you look up the info I linked and offer some intelligent, thoughtful comments on some of that scriptural information? Are you able? Or all you can do is cast aspersions?

 

[rstrats]

KingDomRose,

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Rosenritter]

Indeed, and the Bible was not shy in saying the Lord had sent an evil spirit to Saul when that was in fact the case-- it caused Saul great misery...moodiness and a desire to kill David --that the evil spirit was upon Saul and then departed from him when David played for him.

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.​

There is something all evil spirits have in common. They offer false hope, they lead people into sin, and away from God. When Samuel was disquieted from his rest, he did not give Saul false hope, he did not make any false promises, he repeated what God had already said, and added that he and his three sons would die in battle....joining him in the land of the dead the next day. There was not one single thing that Samuel said that would show the input or fulfil the desire of any demon.

To clarify, do I understand that your argument is that evil spirits never offer bad tidings to their predictions? Can you give a yes or no here?

 

[Rosenritter]

The problem is nothing more than the refusal to believe there is a spiritual realm as well as a physical realm. Just write off all those visions in the Bible and call them optical illusions.

It wasn't really the Lord.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.​

Perhaps Rosie thinks the Lord should have said Moses and Elijah were nothing more than a false vision and divination....a thing of nought.

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.​

Spiritual discernment is required to understand spiritual things.

It would seem that you lack the spiritual discernment to avoid making false accusations.

1) Where have I said that there is not a spiritual realm?
2) Where have I said that the vision of Jesus of Transfiguration was a false vision?