Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[glorydaz]

Hanging by the neck until dead robbed a man of dignity as did any form of decapitation. Dignity is something even pagans hold dear. Dignity is pride and Elohim hates pride. What a fitting end to a pride filled existence.

"Vengeance is mine says Yah Veh it is mine to repay".

You people not only question His Sovereign authority you bring into disrepute His wisdom in vengeance. His vengeance upon you will be fitting. I've often wondered if being bound hand a foot is a slow process...

Poor John the Baptist....lost all his dignity. :nono:

 

[Lon]

1. I have an issue with this "the reality of the bible is fluid" idea you speak of. From my perspective, it feels like a method of evasion. If truth is not longer truth at some arbitrary point in the future, and for purposes of argument these change points can be invented, it feels wrong.

:nono: Please check your reading for comprehension. I said the places of the dead and living are fluid before and after the Lord Jesus Christ's work on the cross. Bible doctrines aren't fluid.

2. If you acknowledge that the passage above creates no contradiction for someone who consistently believes that man has no conscious awareness while dead, then I feel we have accomplished something productive. I am sure you realize that I can point to a few different passages that say in exactly that many words that the dead don't have awareness. This points back to point 1, above, about whether reality is fluid and passages like those become "outdated" or if once spoken, continues to remain true.

None say no awareness at all, just none of this physical life any more.

3. The problem I see in that passage for your position is that point about the earlier 1 Corinthians 15, that Paul speaks of only two types of forms, corruptible and incorruptible. Flesh and spirit. He says we receive the immortality at the resurrection, and not before. That leaves the mortal flesh corruptible body as our vessel until then.

We both have spelled out our understandings of those scriptures, I believe sufficiently, that we understand the other's position.

4. When I say "read as the scripture was meant to be read" it doesn't matter whether it was Hebrew, Greek, or English. I'm talking about the order, starting at the beginning and then moving forward, establishing the foundation before building the embellishments. This is something available to pretty much anyone today, thanks in part to the sacrifices of martyrs before. I realize that it's hard to zero out assumptions and inherited perspectives, like most people have trouble not thinking about a "red fox running around the barn" (bet that triggered a thought.)

The barn or the fox? Perhaps, at times, the Chronology isn't that important. I always tell new believers to read the NT about 7 times or more, before tackling the O.T.

5. I am not sure what two scriptures you have in mind, but I am skeptical that you have two scriptures mandating eternal conscious torment that haven't received an answer in two thousand years. Can you define them?

We've been over them a couple of times.

6. What you said sounds like Pascal's argument, the idea of betting based on minimizing risk in case of a failed result. I reject Pascal's argument, because it doesn't take truth or faith into consideration. If you are wrong, and you teach people wrongly about God, many of these people will reject that God because it isn't a good God, and as such you become a stumbling block to God's children. There's a passage about millstones and deep sea diving in relation to that.

It is in 'addition' to the fact that I think it biblical.

I'd like to present something else for consideration. This is a slightly different application that it is normally used for, but perhaps relevant:

Jas 3:15-17
(15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
(16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.


Eternal Conscious Torment cannot be "wisdom from above" because it is devilish. Yet Christians and non-Christians alike can understand that the extinction of the wicked would bring peace and it would even be a mercy. Yes, I am bringing the moral argument back into this, because it really doesn't go away. Yes, it is a moral argument, but it is a scriptural moral argument.

Yes, but it only seeks a 'way' to reconcile truths. I can't do theology this way, else I'm emoting my way through theology. I realize we have our emotions from God, but, to me, they are like the warning lights on a car. Sometimes they throw false-positives. My engine light comes on all the time now, because I have a pinhole leak in my exhaust. My car's 'emotions' are messing me up for when something actually goes amok.

It is better to think our way through scriptures first. I think emotions simply in our lives as indicators. It is good your values throw a warning light, but we don't live by them. In autos, we must take it to a mechanic, or read up on it ourselves. I believe the same here: ECT throws a trouble light of our emotions. Mine too. I think, because we both threw the same trouble-light, your concern is justified. We, however, must not just attend the light, but the cause of it. God isn't, by any necessity, evil if ECT exists. We get accused of it, but there is NO connection. Example: Do you know of a scripture that says God created Hades or the Lake of Fire? I don't. By comparison, God didn't create sin or the sin condition. All I know, on close inspection, is that people get there, and Hades, death, and Satan are reserved for the Lake of Fire.

 

[Lon]

Start plucking out that eye then, again you are inprisoned to the dead meaning of the letter that jusifies foolishness concerning the Divine will.

"If" it offends :doh: Learn to actually read AND understand it before rejecting it is true to the letter? :think:

 

[Lon]

Hanging by the neck until dead robbed a man of dignity as did any form of decapitation. Dignity is something even pagans hold dear. Dignity is pride and Elohim hates pride. What a fitting end to a pride filled existence.

"Vengeance is mine says Yah Veh it is mine to repay".

You people not only question His Sovereign authority you bring into disrepute His wisdom in vengeance. His vengeance upon you will be fitting. I've often wondered if being bound hand a foot is a slow process...

All of us? Just those who reject conscious torment? :think:

 

[Zeke]

"If" it offends :doh: Learn to actually read AND understand it before rejecting it is true to the letter? :think:

Thats a good practice for you to engage in instead of following the carnal version that kills what Lon? you're dogma that has warped Divine logic which you have yet to grasp.

 

[Zeke]

Hanging by the neck until dead robbed a man of dignity as did any form of decapitation. Dignity is something even pagans hold dear. Dignity is pride and Elohim hates pride. What a fitting end to a pride filled existence.

"Vengeance is mine says Yah Veh it is mine to repay".

You people not only question His Sovereign authority you bring into disrepute His wisdom in vengeance. His vengeance upon you will be fitting. I've often wondered if being bound hand a foot is a slow process...

True for the god of the carnal (Mt Sinai) mind which you have encountered and still enslaves you in carnal temporal bliss.

 

[Lon]

Thats a good practice for you to engage in instead of following the carnal version that kills what Lon? you're dogma that has warped Divine logic which you have yet to grasp.

Yeah, those 'pesky FACTS' ones that would give you any inkling in the FIRST PLACE, are written down. Go figure. Did you realize even your rebuttals are written down?

Here is my thesis: At any point what you have written down that contradicts the scriptures, THOSE are the letters that kill. :think:

 

[way 2 go]

You're a nut....that must be why I like you so much.

Nope, when Christians get executed they go to be with the Lord.

When a sinner is executed, he waits in hades until the Judgment.

yes


an execution separates the finite flesh from the eternal spirit.
:execute:

 

[way 2 go]

You're quite the wack job. I was making fun of what you said. You don't see the quotes? Jesus came to the Jews....of course he was referring to the Jews. It was your silly notion that the beggar was a Gentile that was so ridiculous.

You're actually afraid of that text about the rich man and Lazarus, aren't you? It's unsettling because it puts a huge hole in your argument. So you reach, and you fish, and you scold, and you cajole, and you even go so far as to claim Jesus is telling a fable....a tall tale not even based on any fact. :nono:

yes

No, there is serious contradiction between Jesus and the rest of the bible, if that passage uses literal elements rather than symbolic.

 

[glorydaz]

yes


an execution separates the finite flesh from the eternal spirit.
:execute:

Yep, when we die physically, our soul and spirit live on....til the judgement.

What about those who have not been given life - the unbelievers? "There is no life in them" isn't just referring to the body.

The gift of God is eternal life. Do all receive that gift?

 

[way 2 go]

Yep, when we die physically, our soul and spirit live on....til the judgement.

yes

What about those who have not been given life - the unbelievers? "There is no life in them" isn't just referring to the body.

if they don't have Jesus they don't have life , now or in the afterlife.

The gift of God is eternal life. Do all receive that gift?

satan is a spirit and alive but does not have life same with unbelievers.

 

[Rosenritter]

That's one opinion Way 2 Go.

the penalty is an eternity in the lake of fire,

fire does not consume

But whomever wrote these had another opinion.

Psalms 37:20 KJV
(20) But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Matthew 3:12 KJV
(12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Do you have any idea how long chaff continues to exist before it is consumed, if you throw it into a fire and you don't quench that fire?

 

[Rosenritter]

Glorydaz, are you sure you want to be so assertive without listening to why these learned, intelligent, and respected men could say with confidence that this "spirit of Samuel" was a demonic apparition?

Proverbs 18:13 KJV
(13) He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Even if you were to argue and believe that it was really Samuel, you still don't have anything to show that Samuel was conscious from before he was summoned by the witch, nor that he was conscious afterwards. All you gain is a belief that those that commune with demons can summon the saints from rest.

Probably because they are all fallible men. There are many others who say otherwise. God is more than able to use any means he wants.....even sending satan to inflict suffering on Job.

The fact is that the Bible says, Samuel said....it does not say the false spirit of Samuel said. The bible wouldn't be saying it was Samuel talking if it wasn't. What Samuel did say was in absolute accord with what God had already said....word for word. Then the fact that Saul and his sons would die the next day, and would be with Samuel (in the land of the dead) shows what no "demonic spirit" could know.

1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.​

 

[Rosenritter]

It only takes a second for a punishment to be eternal.

A punishment that results in death would fit the bill.

Actually, what makes a punishment eternal or not is whether it will ever be undone. If you do something permanent that cannot or will not be undone, then it is eternal, and never changing, is it not?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

That says the beast, the false prophet and satan go into the fire alive and are tormented for ever. :thumb:

It doesn't say that about anyone else. It says those not written in the book of life will be thrown in, also. If they aren't written in the book of life, there is no life in them.

Actually.... your translation reads differently than mine.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I've looked at the specific source text before and there's no word for "they" in the text. No "and they shall be tormented" in the Greek. There's simply the identification of the fire as being the same one that the beast and false prophet were cast into a thousand years earlier.

And nothing to indicate that this beast and false prophet were fireproof or continued to exist.

 

[Lon]

Do you have any idea how long chaff continues to exist before it is consumed, if you throw it into a fire and you don't quench that fire?

Does physical fire actually make things non-existent? Or does it actually simply change the physical properties of said objects? :think:

What about a different kind of fire? :think:

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz, are you sure you want to be so assertive without listening to why these learned, intelligent, and respected men could say with confidence that this "spirit of Samuel" was a demonic apparition?

Proverbs 18:13 KJV
(13) He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Even if you were to argue and believe that it was really Samuel, you still don't have anything to show that Samuel was conscious from before he was summoned by the witch, nor that he was conscious afterwards. All you gain is a belief that those that commune with demons can summon the saints from rest.

No, and NO. Or YES, I am sure. I have considered what all kinds of learned men have had to say on just about every topic (including this one) over my forty plus years walking with the Lord. I also studied it for myself, and sought the Lord's enlightenment, as I always do as I read the word. Samuel was not summoned by the seer...she knew she was a fraud and unable to call up spirits. I'm surprised you don't. God, however can summon up whoever He desires for whatever purpose He desires and that is what you see here. God had told Saul, through Samuel when he was alive, that He would no longer listen to Saul. But, in His infinite mercy, He decided to send Samuel to tell Saul one more time....giving him a chance to call on God for mercy before his life ended. Many believe that Saul did call on God before the end....I don't know, and man can only speculate. Should I believe those speculations, too?

Rather, I see the Scripture says it's Samuel, and Samuel is speaking the same words he had spoken before. He gave Saul no false hope or information. If you want to allow your opinions to be formed by others....who have no better access to the scripture than we all do, that's your concern. Not mine.

I'm not out to "gain" anything. I have no dog in the fight...other than what I have found as truth from the word. I don't care what you or others think about it...one way or the other.

Have you found any other men of God responding to spiritualists after death being talked about in the Bible? If so, please share those.

 

[Rosenritter]

I am left to think that either you don't have the courage to carry through on your beliefs, or you don't really love these babies that you could send on their way, or ... what I was suggesting earlier, that you might not really believe that in your heart of hearts.

Jesus does not say that babies or children go to heaven. What you said, no, I don't believe that. Here is what Jesus actually said:

Matthew 18:3-4 KJV
(3) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

That's a type of metaphor, using the word "as" to emphasize the aspect of humility. Or at least an ideal by comparing it to the particular humble child (or children) Jesus was pointing to at that time.

Notice that Jesus does not even say that humility is the sole aspect of what determines who enters the kingdom of heaven.

So what I don't understand is why you are wishy-washy about this. How do you call it both good and evil in the same post? I will come right out and call it abominable child sacrifice that must surely please the spirits of Baal and Moloch. I know why I call it evil. But if you truly believed it would save a child from an eternity of torment, why do you call it evil?

I do believe that, and Jesus is the way, for He tells us theirs is the kingdom of heaven. What, you don't believe Him? You think the wicked will just die off but the innocent won't be saved? :chew:

Another foolish thing to say. In fact, it's something that should not even be spoken of it's so evil. It just so happens that I do not consider myself to be a god, as you seem to suggest I should, but trust fully in the One True God to do His work. I don't support.....you know what? I can't even stand to speak of the horrors you blatantly suggest I should "support".

And another thing to stir you up......I do believe that this horrible abortion epidemic that has come into this evil world of sin is actually a blessing for those poor little souls who would be raised by drug addicts and child abusers. I advise against it only for the sake of the woman. I believe it's God's mercy in these last days. Suffer the little children to come unto Him. And, I don't give a rip what you think about it.

No, your "point" is evil human conjecture to prove a point you can't prove without accusing others of being ignorant and calling the Lord Jesus Christ a teller of fables and fairy tails. You should be ashamed of yourself.

By the way, you should know that we are already told that none of us are innocent of sin.

Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Salvation isn't earned merely by the merit of not having done something really awful yet. The reason a baby hasn't done horrendous acts is because they don't have the power just yet. Give an infant ability and mental capacity and lo and behold, they are like us, as prone to sin as you or I. Salvation isn't earned, immortality is not a birthright. Salvation is offered through Christ, for those who will believe on him.

Now if one believes that all who die will see God, and be raised from the dead, and trusts that God knows what he is doing with this plan and judgment, and no need to worry. But if we are using the Bible for any guide, it doesn't tell us that babies that are killed go to heaven. It actually says they are dead, at rest, in silence, with everyone else who has ever died. No different from anyone else, they sleep until they are raised.

In fact, it says so here:

Spoiler

Job 3:11-22 KJV
(11) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
(12) Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
(13) For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
(14) With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
(15) Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.
(20) Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;
(21) Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;
(22) Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, what makes a punishment eternal or not is whether it will ever be undone. If you do something permanent that cannot or will not be undone, then it is eternal, and never changing, is it not?

Did I say something that made you think you needed to make that statement?

Am I supposed to dissect it and try to imagine some scenario that would contradict it?

Actually.... your translation reads differently than mine.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I've looked at the specific source text before and there's no word for "they" in the text. No "and they shall be tormented" in the Greek. There's simply the identification of the fire as being the same one that the beast and false prophet were cast into a thousand years earlier.

And nothing to indicate that this beast and false prophet were fireproof or continued to exist.

SO? Does that mean your translation is better than mine?

Does it mean that because you find no indication of something it can't exist?

As far as being "fireproof", the burning bush did a pretty good job of being that.

 

[Rosenritter]

What disagreement? I was agreeing.

Ha....you see disagreements when there were none. What a hoot.

 

[Rosenritter]

Your literary style is starting to resemble God's Truth more and more...

You're quite the wack job. I was making fun of what you said. You don't see the quotes? Jesus came to the Jews....of course he was referring to the Jews. It was your silly notion that the beggar was a Gentile that was so ridiculous.

You're actually afraid of that text about the rich man and Lazarus, aren't you? It's unsettling because it puts a huge hole in your argument. So you reach, and you fish, and you scold, and you cajole, and you even go so far as to claim Jesus is telling a fable....a tall tale not even based on any fact. :nono: