Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[rstrats]

way 2 go,
re: "also this verse again Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart..."

I refer you to KingdomRose's comment: "You made the statement that people have eternal spirits, so the burden of proof is on you. Ecclesiastes 3:11 does not mean that we all have eternal spirits. It means that we all desire to live on and not die. No one is willing to choose the day of his death, as a rule. We have a longing within us to live forever."

This is supported in MacLaren's Expositions - " in the heart is planted the thought, the consciousness of eternity-and the longing after it." and in Barnes' Notes - "God has placed in the inborn constitution of man the capability of conceiving of eternity, the struggle to apprehend the everlasting, the longing after an eternal life."

 

[freelight]

how can you call it illogical?

eternal salvation balanced against eternal damnation


seems logical to me :idunno:

We've already addressed this with a specific article as well, the kind of thinking here, and such depends on understanding the original language terms being used, their meanings and extensions. Also note that some of us reject ECT on principle, due to various passages and other reasons, also how we define terms such as 'death', 'destruction', 'everlasting/eternal', 'immortality', etc. My views and correlating resource articles have been amply shared. So goes the hamster wheel.

Original Hebrew and greek words have different meaning inflections than their applied English equavilents, which often render an imperfect or different interpretation. Also note that we who reject or question ECT do so in favor of a 'conditional immortality' view, where there is the final destruction or disintegration of the soul itself, the soul actually DIES, ....its life, consciousness, personality DIES. The best word I've used to describe this final death is 'disintegration'. This is one view that has many scriptural supports. 'Death' in this final sense is a condition of non-existence, the 'second death' being a condition where there is no resurrection, the living soul as a conscious personality is no longer living, its potential and actual existence is terminated. Iniquity has exacted its consequence which is 'death' in the fullest and final sense. This 'death' is the 'eternal punishment', if you want to use that term,....its 'term' is eternal,...eternal death. There is no waking from it,....its effect is eternal. It is the effect of iniquity fully embraced, a total and final rejection of God. (this view is rejected by some spiritualists who assume the human spirit/soul is more or less eternal, and cannot die,.....and so goes a metaphysical debate on this matter).

Another view is more universalist, in that all souls eventually/ultimately are reconciled/reunited to God thru Christ, drawn by his irresistible love and grace, where the will of God ultimately triumphs, and Love restores all. In the meantime, souls are reaping what they sow, and by the law of compensation, experience the consequence of their actions. I've formerly brought in the principle of 'karma' into the equation, as an interesting factor in these proposals. Since souls are still judged according to their works(deeds, action, karma), its something to consider. Love by nature must according its innate will, do all in its power to help, support, empower and inspire souls towards eternal life.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We've already addressed this with a specific article as well, the kind of thinking here, and such depends on understanding the original language terms being used, their meanings and extensions. Also note that some of us reject ECT on principle, due to various passages and other reasons, also how we define terms such as 'death', 'destruction', 'everlasting/eternal', 'immortality', etc. My views and correlating resource articles have been amply shared. So goes the hamster wheel.


.

So speaks the "Cosmic Clown" of the Universe.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Bible does not teach that everyone "has an eternal spirit." Where do you get that idea?


:think:

Don't forget, you're coming from a JW Cultist view?

 

[Timotheos]

Don't forget, you're coming from a JW Cultist view?

The truth does not depend on who is looking at it.
Where do you get the idea that "everyone has an eternal spirit"? Can you give Chapter and Verse support for this idea?

 

[ok doser]

We've already addressed this with a specific article as well, the kind of thinking here, and such depends on understanding the original language terms being used, their meanings and extensions. Also note that some of us reject ECT on principle, due to various passages and other reasons, also how we define terms such as 'death', 'destruction', 'everlasting/eternal', 'immortality', etc. My views and correlating resource articles have been amply shared. So goes the hamster wheel.

Original Hebrew and greek words have different meaning inflections than their applied English equavilents, which often render an imperfect or different interpretation. Also note that we who reject or question ECT do so in favor of a 'conditional immortality' view, where there is the final destruction or disintegration of the soul itself, the soul actually DIES, ....its life, consciousness, personality DIES. The best word I've used to describe this final death is 'disintegration'. This is one view that has many scriptural supports. 'Death' in this final sense is a condition of non-existence, the 'second death' being a condition where there is no resurrection, the living soul as a conscious personality is no longer living, its potential and actual existence is terminated. Iniquity has exacted its consequence which is 'death' in the fullest and final sense. This 'death' is the 'eternal punishment', if you want to use that term,....its 'term' is eternal,...eternal death. There is no waking from it,....its effect is eternal. It is the effect of iniquity fully embraced, a total and final rejection of God. (this view is rejected by some spiritualists who assume the human spirit/soul is more or less eternal, and cannot die,.....and so goes a metaphysical debate on this matter).

Another view is more universalist, in that all souls eventually/ultimately are reconciled/reunited to God thru Christ, drawn by his irresistible love and grace, where the will of God ultimately triumphs, and Love restores all. In the meantime, souls are reaping what they sow, and by the law of compensation, experience the consequence of their actions. I've formerly brought in the principle of 'karma' into the equation, as an interesting factor in these proposals. Since souls are still judged according to their works(deeds, action, karma), its something to consider. Love by nature must according its innate will, do all in its power to help, support, empower and inspire souls towards eternal life.

wow - what a lot of words to avoid the fact that eternal salvation versus eternal damnation is logical

 

[genuineoriginal]

wow - what a lot of words to avoid the fact that eternal salvation versus eternal damnation is logical

Is your idea of Hell the one with the Devil holding a pitchfork and presiding over the torment of sinners for all eternity with his demons?
Do you think the Greeks got it right with their stories about Tartarus and the Elysian Fields?

Or are you willing to admit that the Christian stories about heaven and hell have more in common with the Greek stories than with the Bible?

 

[freelight]

wow - what a lot of words to avoid the fact that eternal salvation versus eternal damnation is logical

Yes, because there is certainly MUCH more involved, - I approach it mainly philosophically as well, on as many levels as I can, while respecting that the thread purpose is to find a 'biblical' answer, but this is complicated since there are different interpretations of passages. It is true on one level, that there is eternal 'life' and 'death',...but its how we define those terms that matter in our discussion. 'Eternal damnation' is an English-word term. We've already looked at the greek word 'Aionion' and its derivitives, and that it connotes different meaning values than the English term 'eternal/everlasting', as referring to an 'age', 'epoch', 'dispensation', an indefinite period of time. I'd have to search for these posts and link them as usual, but will bypass that for now. Again, back to definition of terms.

From a conditional immortality POV, there is 'life' and 'death' in their essential and ultimate sense. The ultimate death of the soul is total disintegration, the 'second death'. One holding to ECT believes a soul is kept in a state of endless perpetual torment, so it is not DEAD, but alive and feeling its utter desolation or sorrow....TO NO END. That is insanity....for Love to allow for such, and to keep these souls in that state FOREVER. It is inimnical and illogical to love, to say the least. Love does not impose eternal suffering from which there is no relief, for that is not love's will or character. You malign the very character of God with the concept of ECT.

You are challenged to reconsider ECT and research the teaching of 'conditional immortality' here. Research the facts, passages, word-meanings, logics for yourself. Compare views. See what is more moral, sound, rational.

 

[way 2 go]

You made the statement that people have eternal spirits, so the burden of proof is on you.

:nono:
you disagree but can not counter my verses with sound doctrine.




Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne

physical death did not annihilate the spirit

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jesus said eternal punishment not annihilated

Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

fire not annihilating the spirit

Ecclesiastes 3:11 does not mean that we all have eternal spirits. It means that we all desire to live on and not die. No one is willing to choose the day of his death, as a rule. We have a longing within us to live forever.

Want to try again?

sorry does not say that :carryon:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart,

Jesus said "eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

like he has always said:

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You say "they will be alive." But that is not what the Bible says as to the destiny of wicked people. It says they will be DEAD.

the dead are alive

Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (you are still dead being a JW)

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne


no annihilation of the spirit

 

[KingdomRose]

Is your idea of Hell the one with the Devil holding a pitchfork and presiding over the torment of sinners for all eternity with his demons?
Do you think the Greeks got it right with their stories about Tartarus and the Elysian Fields?

Or are you willing to admit that the Christian stories about heaven and hell have more in common with the Greek stories than with the Bible?

And the sad fact is.....those portrayals of "hell" are not Christian! Fake Christians, centuries ago, took scriptures in the Bible and conformed them to pagan Greek stories. And, I have to say, regretfully, anyone who believes in that stuff will never admit that the stories about "hell" are pagan stories.

 

[KingdomRose]

:nono:
you disagree but can not counter my verses with sound doctrine.



Kingdom Rose replies:

Revelation 20:12 does not state that those resurrected people are spirits.

Matthew 25:46 does not teach that the wicked live on forever. It says they are eternally PUNISHED. Death is an eternal punishment.

Luke 16:24 and the whole story about the Rich Man & Lazarus is a parable---a metaphorical story, not literal---to make a point about the negligence of the Pharisees.

You have a strange understanding of "everlasting punishment." The punishment is everlasting DEATH. The wicked do not get to live forever.

You say "the dead are alive"! Pardon me while I shake my head in bewilderment at such total twisting and turning on its head of the fact that death is truly death and not life.

 

[way 2 go]

And the sad fact is.....those portrayals of "hell" are not Christian! Fake Christians, centuries ago, took scriptures in the Bible and conformed them to pagan Greek stories. And, I have to say, regretfully, anyone who believes in that stuff will never admit that the stories about "hell" are pagan stories.

what is your criteria for spotting fake ?
tingling in your belly
magic rocks
watch tower propaganda ?



the devil is not ruling hell he is in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[way 2 go]

Kingdom Rose replies:

Revelation 20:12 does not state that those resurrected people are spirits.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing

dead are standing right, so they are alive and yet dead after death :think:

Matthew 25:46 does not teach that the wicked live on forever. It says they are eternally PUNISHED. Death is an eternal punishment.

how is "Death is an eternal punishment"
explain it from you perspective.

death is not annihilation because you would not exist then.

death as sleep is not a punishment.

Luke 16:24 and the whole story about the Rich Man & Lazarus is a parable---a metaphorical story, not literal---to make a point about the negligence of the Pharisees.

only story Jesus told where he named someone ,true story.

You have a strange understanding of "everlasting punishment." The punishment is everlasting DEATH. The wicked do not get to live forever.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You say "the dead are alive"! Pardon me while I shake my head in bewilderment at such total twisting and turning on its head of the fact that death is truly death and not life.

a non Christian is considered dead
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (you are still dead being a JW)

 

[way 2 go]

Yes, because there is certainly MUCH more involved, - I approach it mainly philosophically as well, on as many levels as I can, while respecting that the thread purpose is to find a 'biblical' answer, but this is complicated since there are different interpretations of passages. It is true on one level, that there is eternal 'life' and 'death',...but its how we define those terms that matter in our discussion.

define these

Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Gen_7:22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire

'Eternal damnation' is an English-word term. We've already looked at the greek word 'Aionion' and its derivitives, and that it connotes different meaning values than the English term 'eternal/everlasting', as referring to an 'age', 'epoch', 'dispensation', an indefinite period of time. I'd have to search for these posts and link them as usual, but will bypass that for now. Again, back to definition of terms.

i remember your attempt at redefining eternal,
and it made me laugh only you have tried to make eternal life
not mean eternal life

 

[freelight]

Love does not torture forever........

Love does not torture forever........

i remember your attempt at redefining eternal,
and it made me laugh only you have tried to make eternal life
not mean eternal life

Adressed here.

The word 'aion' and its derivitives still indicates an indefinite period of time, an age, a dispensation. Love does not commit any soul to a state of eternal suffering TO NO END. That's insanity. The life of God (essence of immortality) that a soul receives as a gift from God is the 'eternal' (divine life), so that life itself is of the divine nature,....in this sense that soul has 'eternal life'. That soul puts on "immortality". Aionion life also refers to given dispensation or 'age' where the kingdom of God is enjoyed, the millennium or kingdom age. It is life enjoyed for an age, or into the ages.

The old belief of souls being tortured in everlasting hellfire is obsolete, illogical and insane.

 

[Timotheos]

The old belief of souls being tortured in everlasting hellfire is obsolete, illogical and insane.

Exactly. Love does not torture people forever, and the Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

 

[chrysostom]

The old belief of souls being tortured in everlasting hellfire is obsolete, illogical and insane.

Exactly. Love does not torture people forever,

there is only one other option
-either God wants them to suffer
-or
-God can do nothing about it
-and
-neither is possible

 

[ok doser]

Exactly. Love does not torture people forever, and the Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

Spoiler

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Timotheos]

Spoiler

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"Whosover believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have Eternal LIFE"

 

[ok doser]

The Bible never ONCE says that God will torture anyone alive in hellfire forever. That is a made up story by people who can't and won't accept what the Bible says.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"Whosover believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have Eternal LIFE"

go ahead dude - stick your fingers in your ears and keep on ignoring Rev 14:9-11 :idunno:

timmy the chimp:

Spoiler

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