Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

Sorry, but you have no excuse for your heresy.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

God can be plainly seen. He said so. He doesn't lie. His Word isn't stories. It is Truth. God calls you: "Fool." You need to repent of your blasphemy.

Hello Aimiel.
Did you read on in Romans 1?
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

According to Paul, those who do these things deserve to die, he didn't say that they deserved eternal conscious torment. Later on Paul says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

That settles the issue for me. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is not true, according to the Bible.

 

[Zeke]

Sorry, but you have no excuse for your heresy.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

God can be plainly seen. He said so. He doesn't lie. His Word isn't stories. It is Truth. God calls you: "Fool." You need to repent of your blasphemy.

Now your just throwing scripture at me that has no relevance to my view, your saying I made god into all the above which is another false inflection on your part.
Do you even know what a allegory, type, shadow, figurative, similitudes are for? your grasping at shadows which have no substance in reality. They portray the spirits inward work in the temple made without hands, something not observable to the natural eyes.

 

[Zeke]

It is good to fear God. It moves me to obey, and the blessings are more than I could have ever realized.

Well one mans blessing may not be perceived as such by another, the fear based school of obedience is one I no longer see as a viable way to have a relationship, respect yes, fear is for enemies but even those are loved by the God who is Spirit, who isn't bound by some ink stains in a book of allegories and shadows.

 

[Aimiel]

Hello Aimiel.
Did you read on in Romans 1?

Yes, of course I have, but you're trying to change the subject. I was speaking about someone who's missed God's Word WAY more than you have.

According to Paul, those who do these things deserve to die, he didn't say that they deserved eternal conscious torment.

Because no one has that right except God. He holds ALL power, whether you realize it or not.

 

[Aimiel]

Now your just throwing scripture at me that has no relevance to my view, your saying I made god into all the above which is another false inflection on your part.

Nope. Scripture did that to you, and it isn't false and it isn't just stories. It is Truth, which you cannot hide from. By rejecting The Gospel of Christ you have done these things. You need to buy a clue. :duh:

 

[Aimiel]

... in a book of allegories and shadows.

Now The Word of God is darkness?!? Wow. You're off your nut. :kookoo:

 

[freelight]

continue research........

continue research........

~*~*~

freelight's previous post here

I only believe what the Bible says.

And what it says is subject to so much 'interpreting'.

The Bible speaks of people not repenting.

Yes,...it so happens that there may be 'times'(moments, periods, seasons) that people do not repent, but that they can repent remains possible, unless they are no longer able/capabale of doing so. It is this 'issue' that is in question, and even if a soul has reached a point of no-return into abject darkness by some self-willed infliction upon itself, it is its own choosing of such conditions, and not a 'punishment' from a sadistic 'god', since 'Real God' is Love and is always availing itself to all souls responsive to it.

I do understand what you are saying. I just do not believe in what you are saying because it is not from the written Word of God.

Understanding pivotal points shared is a good start

One choosing to 'confine' their mind to only some literal interpretation of a few passages, assuming such to be the 'word of God', can limit one's learning and greater comprehension of a subject. In this case and in all matters, we are to use the faculties given to us by 'God', that being reason, logic, common sense, conscience, intuition, inflective-intelligence...to continually weigh out a matter that is not otherwise easily defined.

Also if a 'doctrine' denies or confuses the essential nature and character of 'God', assuming conclusions that are contrary to its very principles,...then that concept is to be rejected, and the true principles held to.

No one has proven to me with scripture that the unsaved do not live forever in the lake of fire.

In this and other threads, and in the general knowledge available to any researcher,...the issues over the few passages in Revelation or the gospels concerning the original languages ought to clarify such 'assumptions', and a better interpretation afforded.
Beyond the technical issues of language, we've already seen that souls enduring a conscious existence confined to a lake of fire, in eternal torment, to no end...is well....senseless, besides insane.

I do not believe the spirit ever dies; therefore, how will a spirit cease from existing in the lake of fire?

We assume that the spirit-soul is an eternal entity, with immortality-potential (meaning that it may assume thru a transformation of spirit, the very nature of divinity making it of the same essence as 'God', if it chooses regeneration). The view that souls can suffer a final/eternal death, would indicate such ceasing to exist as a functioning conscious entity. In this case, a soul is wholly consumed and dissolved back into the primal elements and universal Spirit of God, since there is no other origin or context for anything to be (or not be). - here there is no senseless suffering of a non-ending duration into eternity, but a clean dissolution and distintegration back into Spirit.

You speak about God’s love.

A love that is self-evident, seeing that one's own self-existence inheres within it.

How can you speak about God’s love when you do not do what God says?

If what is written violates or confuses the nature of said 'God', then should one cling to the dead letter or the living Spirit?

You believe in things not taught by God. We are not supposed to do that.

Show me in principle, where what I share concerning the love, truth, justice, wisdom and mercy of 'God' that I stray far from the honor of such Deity. What one is 'supposed' to do or not...is a matter of one's own conscience.

We love and know God if we obey Jesus’ teachings.

Yes,...if we can properly discern what Jesus really taught. To do that one must really research the gospels and decide what is actually his teaching from which was merely ascribed to him, or interpolated by tradition or scribes, then one must properly 'interpret' those sayings.





pj

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, of course I have, but you're trying to change the subject.

The topic is "Do sinners receive eternal life in torment or death?'" It's not changing the subject to point out Paul's answer to this question.

 

[Zeke]

Now The Word of God is darkness?!? Wow. You're off your nut. :kookoo:

I guess you never learned what a shadow meant, nor an allegory. As far as there being a WOW factor in this thread your doctrine of eternal punishment wins hands down.

 

[Zeke]

freelight;



In this and other threads, and in the general knowledge available to any researcher,...the issues over the few passages in Revelation or the gospels concerning the original languages ought to clarify such 'assumptions', and a better interpretation afforded.
Beyond the technical issues of language, we've already seen that souls enduring a conscious existence confined to a lake of fire, in eternal torment, to no end...is well....senseless, besides insane.

Jonah 2:6, forever might not be forever after all.

 

[freelight]

meta-physics.......

meta-physics.......

I guess you never learned what a shadow meant, nor an allegory. As far as there being a WOW factor in this thread your doctrine of eternal punishment wins hands down.

One does not even need a religious sentiment or disposition to see the barbarity of ECT.

As far as 'light' and 'shadow' goes, we've referenced ample commentary explaining such, for in a world of contrast and duality,...both co-exist dependent upon one another as a play on perception. To speculate whether 'God' is the source of both becomes redundant once we intuit 'God' as the root and origin of all that exists and all that exists in potential, even in that which 'appears' to be not of 'God', since though nothing can exist independently from 'God'.

'God' provides for all possible realities or non-reality, all that is knowable and unknowable. The metaphor of 'light' and 'darkness' are natural to a mind making such distinctions, where the contrast appears.

'God' is said to be 'Light', and no darkness at all existing in Him...even if creation in space-time naturally includes both (duality). Pure Light existing as itself and unto itself alone...we may recognize as being 'non-dual' in nature, whole unto itself with no division, difference or separation, since there is only 'that'. However, once there emerges out from 'God' a manifold of associative creation, there comes into view the whole panoply of dualities, multiplicity, separation, difference, contrast, definition, dimension, and all that is native to such.

* From the non-dual perspective....'God' is (undefined pure actuality, from which all potentiality inheres and arises).

* From the dualistic view (which includes 'definition')....God is 'light'...and 'darkness' or 'shadows' come into being within dimensional creation (space-time subjectivity and objectivity).

This is why in some passages 'God' claims to dwell in the uttermost 'darkness' as well as in 'light' since 'God' is the prior One before all conditions, the omnipresent ground from which all conditions appear and into which all ultimately disappears ('integration' and 'dis-integration).



pj

 

[freelight]

suffering only endures for a season......

suffering only endures for a season......

Jonah 2:6, forever might not be forever after all.

Excellent, when we consider God's Love is infinite.

Also, the word 'aion' is falsely translated into the English word 'forever', when its meaning contains a different nuance meaning an indefinite period of time, an 'age', and does not indicate a pure 'eternity'. Beyond all these technical points of logic and language-indiciations....its still insane for a 'god' to inflict an eternity of punishment upon its own offspring.

Eternal punishment: Is it really of God?



pj

 

[God's Truth]

:thumb:

Amen.

 

[God's Truth]

Well one mans blessing may not be perceived as such by another, the fear based school of obedience is one I no longer see as a viable way to have a relationship, respect yes, fear is for enemies but even those are loved by the God who is Spirit, who isn't bound by some ink stains in a book of allegories and shadows.

How could fear not be a blessing to all if it moves you to do what God says? I delight in the fear of the God. Try it, obey, and you will see too.

Isaiah 11:3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.

 

[God's Truth]

Hello Aimiel.
Did you read on in Romans 1?
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

According to Paul, those who do these things deserve to die, he didn't say that they deserved eternal conscious torment. Later on Paul says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

That settles the issue for me. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is not true, according to the Bible.

The wages of sin is death, and we die physically in this life, but our spirits live on, spirit cannot die.
When we are raised from the dead, we will not only still have our spirit, but also a new body, a spiritual body.

 

[Aimiel]

...if we can properly discern what Jesus really taught. To do that one must really research the gospels and decide what is actually his teaching from which was merely ascribed to him, or interpolated by tradition or scribes, then one must properly 'interpret' those sayings.

We can discern what He actually taught, by reading Scripture. Thinking there might be lies in Scripture isn't faith in The Word of God, it's faith in one's interpretation. God's Word isn't lies, types, shadow, allegories, hyperbole or any other form of half-truth. It is Truth. Historically it's perfectly accurate. No other record in antiquity can make that claim. Calling The Bible lies or hinting that what is printed in Scripture might not be what Jesus said or maybe not what He meant is simply discounting God, The Bible, Truth and simply isn't wise at all.

 

[Aimiel]

The topic is "Do sinners receive eternal life in torment or death?'" It's not changing the subject to point out Paul's answer to this question.

I was speaking to Zeke, not you and we were discussing his blasphemy, not yours. I guess you're not able to follow along in a conversation on TOL just as you cannot when you read Scripture. :duh:

 

[Zeke]

How could fear not be a blessing to all if it moves you to do what God says? I delight in the fear of the God. Try it, obey, and you will see too.

Isaiah 11:3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.

So you sold all and given the proceeds to the poor? or do you pick and choose which ones you obey?

 

[Zeke]

Excellent, when we consider God's Love is infinite.

Also, the word 'aion' is falsely translated into the English word 'forever', when its meaning contains a different nuance meaning an indefinite period of time, an 'age', and does not indicate a pure 'eternity'. Beyond all these technical points of logic and language-indiciations....its still insane for a 'god' to inflict an eternity of punishment upon its own offspring.

Eternal punishment: Is it really of God?



pj

The toxic bibles videos are good to.

Of coarse one must be free to explore all the possibilities, as we can see some are reluctant to venture out for fear of finding out their wrong about forever, hell, etc... and the historical silence concerning the bible stories, Which shows that isn't the main concern, or context being addressed by the scripture.

Lots of talk about how they obey their word of God, but I would bet they fall pretty short in that department as they do in humane reasoning.

 

[God's Truth]

And what it says is subject to so much 'interpreting'.

Just start putting to practice Jesus’ teachings. He will save you and open your eyes to understand the scriptures.

Yes,...it so happens that there may be 'times'(moments, periods, seasons) that people do not repent, but that they can repent remains possible, unless they are no longer able/capabale of doing so. It is this 'issue' that is in question, and even if a soul has reached a point of no-return into abject darkness by some self-willed infliction upon itself, it is its own choosing of such conditions, and not a 'punishment' from a sadistic 'god', since 'Real God' is Love and is always availing itself to all souls responsive to it.

Can you refrain from blaspheming God? The wrath of God is coming.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Understanding pivotal points shared is a good start

One choosing to 'confine' their mind to only some literal interpretation of a few passages, assuming such to be the 'word of God', can limit one's learning and greater comprehension of a subject. In this case and in all matters, we are to use the faculties given to us by 'God', that being reason,

You assume that I assume.

logic, common sense, conscience, intuition, inflective-intelligence...to continually weigh out a matter that is not otherwise easily defined.

I tell you, if you chose to obey Jesus’ teachings, you would find out the truth.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Jesus reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obeys them.

John 14:21 NET He who has my commandments and obeys them--he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly reveal myself to him."

Don’t you want to find out for yourself?

In this and other threads, and in the general knowledge available to any researcher,...the issues over the few passages in Revelation or the gospels concerning the original languages ought to clarify such 'assumptions', and a better interpretation afforded.
Beyond the technical issues of language, we've already seen that souls enduring a conscious existence confined to a lake of fire, in eternal torment, to no end...is well....senseless, besides insane.

Our spirits do not die. So then, tell me how the spirits of the evil are going to die in the lake of fire.

We assume that the spirit-soul is an eternal entity, with immortality-potential (meaning that it may assume thru a transformation of spirit, the very nature of divinity making it of the same essence as 'God', if it chooses regeneration). The view that souls can suffer a final/eternal death, would indicate such ceasing to exist as a functioning conscious entity. In this case, a soul is wholly consumed and dissolved back into the primal elements and universal Spirit of God, since there is no other origin or context for anything to be (or not be). - here there is no senseless suffering of a non-ending duration into eternity, but a clean dissolution and distintegration back into Spirit.

There is no such scripture that says that.

If what is written violates or confuses the nature of said 'God', then should one cling to the dead letter or the living Spirit?

You did not make sense what you said.
You do not believe the Bible. I believe that God knew exactly what was going to be written, and preserved His written Word. We are talking about God, the Creator of all that is seen and unseen. Yet, you do not think that God could keep His word for all generations.

Show me in principle, where what I share concerning the love, truth, justice, wisdom and mercy of 'God' that I stray far from the honor of such Deity. What one is 'supposed' to do or not...is a matter of one's own conscience.

You stray because you choose what you want to believe and discard the rest. None of God’s word is to be discarded.

Yes,...if we can properly discern what Jesus really taught. To do that one must really research the gospels and decide what is actually his teaching from which was merely ascribed to him, or interpolated by tradition or scribes, then one must properly 'interpret' those sayings.

Again, you do not believe what is written; and, you will not have Jesus revealed to you unless obey what is written.