God's Truth
New member
If anyone can answer my questions then they can persuade me, as long as they use scripture.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
covered over and over again.............
covered over and over again.............
This is a very long thread, - all these things have previously been covered here in one way or another. Important here is considering the infinite love of 'God', the issue of his will being fulfilled, the principle of free will, and how all these things inter-relate or coordinate within divine providence. We've gone over these things over and over and over again. I've brought significant points, questions and problems with ECT in my blog-portal which links my earlier posts here.
One limitation of those here only using the 'Bible' as some collection of 'proof-texts' to support their view is that it is limited to only that cultural-context (plus the writers point of view). Words have various meanings determined by their own etymology and context, besides some being 'figurative/metaphoric'. Language is symbolic, subject to various modes of 'interpretation'. If a literal interpretation of a text violates principles or the character of 'God', another alternative interpretation must be given that is consonant with true principles.
Does infinite Love condemn or impute a sentence of eternal punishment and suffering upon others? Is that Love's nature? Is that Love's will?
Then there is the issue of 'free will',...where souls have real freedom to make choices in every moment, to either reject life or embrace life, to respond/re-turn to 'God'. If this freedom is available to a soul (at any point in space or time), then it can 'repent' and be saved...as long as this ability/capacity actually exists in a soul (and this applies wherever a soul is alive and 'conscious', whatever dimension or world). For these souls then, salvation or repentance (change/transformation) would always be afforded provided they 'return' to love/light/truth. ECT assumes these souls no longer have this ability/capacity to repent (change their minds)....and are therefore somehow detained in a hell-like or firey state forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. (this complicates the principles of justice, mercy, let alone reason or logic)
You're stuck with assuming souls can be put into a hopeless situation or 'hell-like' state for all eternity, to no effect or resolve, just a perpetual torment having no result or correcting influence, just eternal misery, darkness, conscious suffering.....forever and ever and ever. How insane is that? How does that fulfill the purpose of life, or bring to pass Love's will? Note that God's omnipresent Love still fills the entire universe, and His will never changes. This is just the tip of the iceberg on the insanity of ECT, which demands so many explanations which open up further questions with speculative answers.
This is why 'conditional immortality' (which includes soul-death) and 'universalism' provides a more sane and tenable solution on some levels, while ECT fails on others.
I might add a further complexity here is distinguishing between 'spirit' and 'soul' and what components here can disintegrate or really 'die', or return to 'God'. This differs from school to school, but we'd have to again cover the metaphysics and ontology of 'individual existence'. So you see the 'hamster wheel' here with trying to nail down what is so called 'biblical', when the Bible is a mesh of documents influenced by many different cultures (Egyptian, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Greek, Gnostic, Mystery-religions, etc.) being a 'segway' to produce various other denominations, which used the canonical texts and non-canonical texts within their own sub-groups. A biblical world-view is really 'syncretic' in the underlying substructure, while 'appearing' or 'claiming' to be exclusive, in a monotheistic sense. But thats another chapter.
pj
covered over and over again.............
This is a very long thread, - all these things have previously been covered here in one way or another. Important here is considering the infinite love of 'God', the issue of his will being fulfilled, the principle of free will, and how all these things inter-relate or coordinate within divine providence. We've gone over these things over and over and over again. I've brought significant points, questions and problems with ECT in my blog-portal which links my earlier posts here.
One limitation of those here only using the 'Bible' as some collection of 'proof-texts' to support their view is that it is limited to only that cultural-context (plus the writers point of view). Words have various meanings determined by their own etymology and context, besides some being 'figurative/metaphoric'. Language is symbolic, subject to various modes of 'interpretation'. If a literal interpretation of a text violates principles or the character of 'God', another alternative interpretation must be given that is consonant with true principles.
Does infinite Love condemn or impute a sentence of eternal punishment and suffering upon others? Is that Love's nature? Is that Love's will?
Then there is the issue of 'free will',...where souls have real freedom to make choices in every moment, to either reject life or embrace life, to respond/re-turn to 'God'. If this freedom is available to a soul (at any point in space or time), then it can 'repent' and be saved...as long as this ability/capacity actually exists in a soul (and this applies wherever a soul is alive and 'conscious', whatever dimension or world). For these souls then, salvation or repentance (change/transformation) would always be afforded provided they 'return' to love/light/truth. ECT assumes these souls no longer have this ability/capacity to repent (change their minds)....and are therefore somehow detained in a hell-like or firey state forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. (this complicates the principles of justice, mercy, let alone reason or logic)
You're stuck with assuming souls can be put into a hopeless situation or 'hell-like' state for all eternity, to no effect or resolve, just a perpetual torment having no result or correcting influence, just eternal misery, darkness, conscious suffering.....forever and ever and ever. How insane is that? How does that fulfill the purpose of life, or bring to pass Love's will? Note that God's omnipresent Love still fills the entire universe, and His will never changes. This is just the tip of the iceberg on the insanity of ECT, which demands so many explanations which open up further questions with speculative answers.
This is why 'conditional immortality' (which includes soul-death) and 'universalism' provides a more sane and tenable solution on some levels, while ECT fails on others.
I might add a further complexity here is distinguishing between 'spirit' and 'soul' and what components here can disintegrate or really 'die', or return to 'God'. This differs from school to school, but we'd have to again cover the metaphysics and ontology of 'individual existence'. So you see the 'hamster wheel' here with trying to nail down what is so called 'biblical', when the Bible is a mesh of documents influenced by many different cultures (Egyptian, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Greek, Gnostic, Mystery-religions, etc.) being a 'segway' to produce various other denominations, which used the canonical texts and non-canonical texts within their own sub-groups. A biblical world-view is really 'syncretic' in the underlying substructure, while 'appearing' or 'claiming' to be exclusive, in a monotheistic sense. But thats another chapter.
pj
God's Truth
New member
You need to post here; I will not go to other links. You complain that this is a long thread then you write too long of a post.
If you are too tired to try to defend your beliefs then do not. You have not convinced me that those who will be put in the lake of fire do not have eternal consciousness. You can try to convince me, if you prove with scripture that what you say is true. However, stop using your own wisdom to try to convince me, such as when you say things like “considering the infinite love of God”. In addition, I want to tell you that you will not ever convince me that all will be saved, for God’s Word plainly and clearly say that there will be those who will not repent. We must repent to be saved.
Man’s wisdom is garbage. I will not consider any of your arguments outside of the written word. I could not care less what Buddha says.
The written Word of God tells us that God is love, and those who reject Jesus are already condemned.
You have not proven anything.
If a person will not repent of their sins, and love God then we will not have a world without others causing evil. God does not make people love Him.
Man’s wisdom is garbage. You do not have God’s wisdom; you show this when you want to take away parts of the Bible that you do not agree with or understand. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Your wanting to remove some of God’s words shows you do not fear God.
I do not agree with you. You want to claim the Bible is not true, but that it is corrupted. You want me to believe God’s Truth cannot be known. You are badly mistaken, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.
God's Truth
New member
Those scriptures do not say that the wicked will cease to exist anywhere. The Bible says they will exist in the lake of fire.
We know from God’s word that those who reject Jesus are dead even as they live.
I do not think you understand about the spiritual.
Lets take Ez 18:4
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
It should be obvious that the dying mentioned here is not the first death because even the righteous die physically.
The dying can only refer to the second death of the lake of fire.
The word is "die" not live in hell.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
LA
God's Truth
New member
The scriptures tell us that even those who are physically alive are dead, if they reject Jesus. You do not understand what is spiritual. You do not believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the body.
God's Truth
New member
If you do not believe they cease to exist then they are alive somewhere.
Ardima
New member
Death and ceasing to exist are two different things. If Lazarus and the girl Jesus raised from the dead ceased to exist upon death, Jesus certainly would not have merely called them asleep.
Posted from the TOL App!
God's Truth
New member
That is right. Timotheos has not yet clarified what his beliefs are about this.
Our spirits live on in consciousness after the death of our bodies. Even though a person is physically dead, they do not cease to exist because they are alive in the spirit.
Sleep is a metaphor for physical death because the body looks asleep/dead.
Death is separation, not cessation.
Physical death is separation of spirit-soul (which lives on) from body. The spirit without body is alive, but body without spirit is dead.
Spiritual death is relational separation of living sinner from holy God (Eph. 2...dead in sins, yet physically alive/conscious).
Eternal/Second death is everlasting separation of unregenerate from God in hell/lake of fire, conscious.
Death is separation, not cessation.
Physical death is separation of spirit-soul (which lives on) from body. The spirit without body is alive, but body without spirit is dead.
Spiritual death is relational separation of living sinner from holy God (Eph. 2...dead in sins, yet physically alive/conscious).
Eternal/Second death is everlasting separation of unregenerate from God in hell/lake of fire, conscious.
No, I do not believe that dead people are alive somewhere. I believe that dead people are dead. As Christians we can be resurrected to life again.
so when does death mean death?
and
why not use the word separation?
if
you mean separation
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Word of God doesn't say that those relegated to the Lake of Fire have any end to their torment...
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
They are not described as 'ceasing to exist' or dead or any other metaphor... they are tormented for ever and ever. There is no end of that torment. It is not ever going to change. They will be tormented with fire and brimstone. They will never escape. They will never cease to exist.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
They are not described as 'ceasing to exist' or dead or any other metaphor... they are tormented for ever and ever. There is no end of that torment. It is not ever going to change. They will be tormented with fire and brimstone. They will never escape. They will never cease to exist.
Is there day and night anywhere for eternity?
The only place the vials of wrath are poured out, is on our present earth, and upon the kingdom of the beast whose persons are still walking around on the earth.
Such misuse of scripture to try and disprove scripture is common among those who do not believe scripture and override it with mans false views.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
LA
No scripture says the soul is alive without the body.
They are only alive in the sight of God IF they are His, but they are dead as Christ taught.
You would have it that none ever die, when the Bible says they are dead.
and you would have it that the wicked are also alive to God in their death.
Why do you not accept what God says?
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Investigating further.......
Investigating further.......
We've extensively covered the subject thru-out the thread, and links are shared to such 'discussions' which expound on and clarify important points. One really interested in discovering the truth will invest the time.
It could be your too lazy to research all that been covered already, since I've amply shared what I find problematic about ECT here and up til present, from philosophical, moral and ontological points of view. Those not interested in exploring every dimension of the subject and its implications are narrow-minded, since 'life' and 'death' includes more than just one religious book or tradition can encompass or explain. Denominations all using the Bible still cannot agree on this subject, among others. Furthermore volumes from spirit-communications, NDE and psychical research shed much light on the After-life and the spheres beyond, laying the foundation of the principles found within Spiritualism. We covered alot of this in my fomer thread 'Near Death Experiences and the Afterlife' as well.
I dont need to convince anyone about anything, but share in hopes they will investigate the matter for themselves, since 'God' condemning souls to a state of 'ECT' is insane. If you could drop your presuppositions and preconceptions, and really investigate and READ what others are sharing (also evidence from Spiritualist sources), you might afford yourself a better comprehension of the bigger picture here.
It is agreed that man must 'repent' (change his mind in some way) to affect 'change' on some level. However we can only speculate if a soul can reach a state where it is no longer able to repent (having lost its capacity totally). I've always maintained that as long as a soul is able to repent, it can always avail itself of repentance and re-turn to 'God' (love/light/truth). As long as that 'ability' exists, the salvation or enlightenment of 'God' is available. This holds at any level of existence as long as a soul is alive (conscious, and able to make choices).
The conundrum here though is the assumption of how 'God' handles or 'manages' these souls by 'segregating' them forever in a 'prison' or 'lake of fire'....from whence there is no escape, no hope of reformation, change, salvation, enlightenment, freedom, etc. Its illogical for a moral governer (who is all-loving and wise) to keep souls forever in such a state, which is pointless, non-productive, unresolved, to no end, but to eternally suffer. Such is illogical to love and antithetical to life.
The 'soul-death' view (conditional immortality)...holds that a soul who wholly embraces iniquity actually 'dies'(upon a complete embrace and fruition of 'sin'), having made a perfect and FINAL choice to reject 'God', - these souls actually 'die' (disintegrate! - they are no longer functioning as an individual unit of consciousness, the personality-complex that there 'were', becomes 'no more', dissolved back into the primal elements or universal Spirit). In this view, there is no ECT, but only the complete extinction of a soul that has chosen 'sin' and its ultimate 'consequence'. No hell-like scenes of souls writhing in pain and agony in a pool of fire and brimstone, as imagined in a few symbolic passages.
Now remember, thru all this, God's INFINITE LOVE still holds and prevails, - Love's will is eternal, unchanging. Consider God's nature, His divine affection, His wisdom. While most of us assume the principle of 'free will' here,...'God' would honor that completely, and desire all to be saved, so hope exists as long as one has the capacity/ability/will to be saved at any point in time.
The possibilities of 'ECT', real 'soul-death', or some kind of 'universalism' remain here.
No mention of Buddha was made here, but a genuine 'consideration' of the subject and it implications.
Besides the pat religious formula above, are you really considering the magnitude, glory and infinity of God's LOVE here? What is love, and what is love's will? Does that Love change concerning these souls, ever?
Truth needs no defense or apology, but true philosophy and a sane 'theology' demands honest investigation and upholding of true principles.
This comes back to 'free will', and surely,...there will be no 'heaven' on earth UNTIL all souls are abiding in harmony with 'God' who is Love, since Love is the universal Law, the divine principle of Life. Since 'God' is Love,...then some essence or principle of love lies at the heart of Man, which cannot ever be 'negated' unless individual free will has the power to wholly reject it, and choose 'death'. The question is, whether this 'second death' is disintegration of individual existence or ECT.
The above shows a vision clouded by so many preconceptions and 'beliefs' as to cloud the bigger picture and actual 'principles' that would govern the soul's eternal progress, or its embrace of 'life' or 'death', to say nothing of the assumption of ECT.
Agreeing or disagreeing is fine. Considering all the points and principles involved in this discussion is essential however. An honest researcher would admit there are points here that are unknowable at present, and at best one can make a hypothesis that resonates with reason and is consistent with true principles, and this is to be considered first before any 'interpretation' of passages.
pj
Investigating further.......
We've extensively covered the subject thru-out the thread, and links are shared to such 'discussions' which expound on and clarify important points. One really interested in discovering the truth will invest the time.
It could be your too lazy to research all that been covered already, since I've amply shared what I find problematic about ECT here and up til present, from philosophical, moral and ontological points of view. Those not interested in exploring every dimension of the subject and its implications are narrow-minded, since 'life' and 'death' includes more than just one religious book or tradition can encompass or explain. Denominations all using the Bible still cannot agree on this subject, among others. Furthermore volumes from spirit-communications, NDE and psychical research shed much light on the After-life and the spheres beyond, laying the foundation of the principles found within Spiritualism. We covered alot of this in my fomer thread 'Near Death Experiences and the Afterlife' as well.
I dont need to convince anyone about anything, but share in hopes they will investigate the matter for themselves, since 'God' condemning souls to a state of 'ECT' is insane. If you could drop your presuppositions and preconceptions, and really investigate and READ what others are sharing (also evidence from Spiritualist sources), you might afford yourself a better comprehension of the bigger picture here.
It is agreed that man must 'repent' (change his mind in some way) to affect 'change' on some level. However we can only speculate if a soul can reach a state where it is no longer able to repent (having lost its capacity totally). I've always maintained that as long as a soul is able to repent, it can always avail itself of repentance and re-turn to 'God' (love/light/truth). As long as that 'ability' exists, the salvation or enlightenment of 'God' is available. This holds at any level of existence as long as a soul is alive (conscious, and able to make choices).
The conundrum here though is the assumption of how 'God' handles or 'manages' these souls by 'segregating' them forever in a 'prison' or 'lake of fire'....from whence there is no escape, no hope of reformation, change, salvation, enlightenment, freedom, etc. Its illogical for a moral governer (who is all-loving and wise) to keep souls forever in such a state, which is pointless, non-productive, unresolved, to no end, but to eternally suffer. Such is illogical to love and antithetical to life.
The 'soul-death' view (conditional immortality)...holds that a soul who wholly embraces iniquity actually 'dies'(upon a complete embrace and fruition of 'sin'), having made a perfect and FINAL choice to reject 'God', - these souls actually 'die' (disintegrate! - they are no longer functioning as an individual unit of consciousness, the personality-complex that there 'were', becomes 'no more', dissolved back into the primal elements or universal Spirit). In this view, there is no ECT, but only the complete extinction of a soul that has chosen 'sin' and its ultimate 'consequence'. No hell-like scenes of souls writhing in pain and agony in a pool of fire and brimstone, as imagined in a few symbolic passages.
Now remember, thru all this, God's INFINITE LOVE still holds and prevails, - Love's will is eternal, unchanging. Consider God's nature, His divine affection, His wisdom. While most of us assume the principle of 'free will' here,...'God' would honor that completely, and desire all to be saved, so hope exists as long as one has the capacity/ability/will to be saved at any point in time.
The possibilities of 'ECT', real 'soul-death', or some kind of 'universalism' remain here.
No mention of Buddha was made here, but a genuine 'consideration' of the subject and it implications.
Besides the pat religious formula above, are you really considering the magnitude, glory and infinity of God's LOVE here? What is love, and what is love's will? Does that Love change concerning these souls, ever?
Truth needs no defense or apology, but true philosophy and a sane 'theology' demands honest investigation and upholding of true principles.
This comes back to 'free will', and surely,...there will be no 'heaven' on earth UNTIL all souls are abiding in harmony with 'God' who is Love, since Love is the universal Law, the divine principle of Life. Since 'God' is Love,...then some essence or principle of love lies at the heart of Man, which cannot ever be 'negated' unless individual free will has the power to wholly reject it, and choose 'death'. The question is, whether this 'second death' is disintegration of individual existence or ECT.
The above shows a vision clouded by so many preconceptions and 'beliefs' as to cloud the bigger picture and actual 'principles' that would govern the soul's eternal progress, or its embrace of 'life' or 'death', to say nothing of the assumption of ECT.
Agreeing or disagreeing is fine. Considering all the points and principles involved in this discussion is essential however. An honest researcher would admit there are points here that are unknowable at present, and at best one can make a hypothesis that resonates with reason and is consistent with true principles, and this is to be considered first before any 'interpretation' of passages.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
More importantly, why do you not accept...
"...If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." ?
His Word clearly says: "for ever and ever," and not, "for a short while." :duh: