Adam died spiritually the day he ate (relational separation of sinful man from holy God). He died physically later as a consequence of this sin. For those who reject God's provision, they will die eternally (separation from God forever, not cessation of existence).
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Adam died spiritually the day he ate (relational separation of sinful man from holy God). He died physically later as a consequence of this sin. For those who reject God's provision, they will die eternally (separation from God forever, not cessation of existence).
Hell was for Satan and his angels. Lucifer and angels are created beings, not humans. They fell and became Satan/demons. They fell before men did. God did not desire, intend, necessitate man's fall. When we did, we join demons in hell if we reject God.
http://biblehub.com/matthew/25-41.htm
More information to consider--
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
That all occurs at the beginning of the thousand years.
All the dead in the sea , in death, in hell, rise to the last judgment at the end of the thousand years.
The ONLY place for torment, as for the rich man, (luke 16) is during the thousand years, and it is for the goats only. (the beast and the false prophet are goats, messengers of satan)
At the last judgment ALL will stand before God and give account (books) but those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire of the second death.
Now from this you can figure it out.
I am still checking everything said to see of it is perfect, but so far it is.
It removes some of the confusion between some A mill and future Mill beliefs.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
LA
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
That all occurs at the beginning of the thousand years.
All the dead in the sea , in death, in hell, rise to the last judgment at the end of the thousand years.
The ONLY place for torment, as for the rich man, (luke 16) is during the thousand years, and it is for the goats only. (the beast and the false prophet are goats, messengers of satan)
At the last judgment ALL will stand before God and give account (books) but those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire of the second death.
Now from this you can figure it out.
I am still checking everything said to see of it is perfect, but so far it is.
It removes some of the confusion between some A mill and future Mill beliefs.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
reality check.....
reality check.....
I'm addressing understanding the concept or principle in its full extent and variations of perspective,...and reiterating that the 'law of compensation' is a universal principle. If you dont recognize that, so be it.
Such claims are only your 'opinion', and according to your own 'concept' of 'God'. No need to be condenscending here.
Which shows you choose to remain 'ignorant', and 'arrogant' with your assumption of not needing to learn anymore beyond your own narrow belief and 'conclusion' about a subject,...when there is always MORE to learn.
Your interpretation of it.
Such is your 'belief'.
Previous commentary on this stands,....for all actions are related to corresponding ones, wherever cause and effect converge in the unfolding of events. "whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap".
This is the 'Religion' section, and I've just as much 'right' and 'privilege' to contribute to this thread as any other, especially when I bring perspectives and insights expanding the greater playing field here as far as possible and probable points of view are concerned. Using the label of 'Christian' doesnt really mean anything since anyone can don a 'label' or 'denomination' (these are just words), just like the word 'biblical' can be variously used by anyone trying to 'validate' their 'belief' about something. Its just a label.
We deal with principles here, and ECT is problematic, beyond whether it is bibilical or not. If something is illogical, unreasonable or insane, it is not consistent with truth or worthy of holding.
pj
reality check.....
I'm addressing understanding the concept or principle in its full extent and variations of perspective,...and reiterating that the 'law of compensation' is a universal principle. If you dont recognize that, so be it.
Such claims are only your 'opinion', and according to your own 'concept' of 'God'. No need to be condenscending here.
Which shows you choose to remain 'ignorant', and 'arrogant' with your assumption of not needing to learn anymore beyond your own narrow belief and 'conclusion' about a subject,...when there is always MORE to learn.
Your interpretation of it.
Such is your 'belief'.
Previous commentary on this stands,....for all actions are related to corresponding ones, wherever cause and effect converge in the unfolding of events. "whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap".
This is the 'Religion' section, and I've just as much 'right' and 'privilege' to contribute to this thread as any other, especially when I bring perspectives and insights expanding the greater playing field here as far as possible and probable points of view are concerned. Using the label of 'Christian' doesnt really mean anything since anyone can don a 'label' or 'denomination' (these are just words), just like the word 'biblical' can be variously used by anyone trying to 'validate' their 'belief' about something. Its just a label.
We deal with principles here, and ECT is problematic, beyond whether it is bibilical or not. If something is illogical, unreasonable or insane, it is not consistent with truth or worthy of holding.
pj
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Conscious torment after death and raising from the dead is not problematic.
LA
LA
God's Truth
New member
You are wrong. I know what karma means. You want to protect your evil beliefs by trying to make it sound different than it is.
Karma and reincarnation are beliefs that the mentally disabled are being punished for being violent mean people in former lives.
I could not care how much you deny it. You prove you are a picker and chooser from here and there.
An evil religion rejects Jesus and follows things taught by demons. I hope you repent to Jesus for following falseness and defending it with lies.
There is no consensus.
Those who are married to the tradition of eternal conscious torment will not let it go. I'm just saying that there is more biblical support for the doctrine that the wages of sin is truly death than there is for the traditional doctrine that the penalty for sin is not death, but eternal life in hell being tormented.
What is the consensus between those who believe the earth is flat and those who believe the earth is round? If someone is married to the tradition that the earth is flat, if their religion depends on it, they will not accept any evidence to the contrary.
they want you to suffer
They really do believe that their religion demands this.
God's Truth
New member
Timotheos, with your beliefs about life and death, you believe when we die in our physical bodies in this world we get the same fate as the wicked in the end that never accepted Jesus.
Please explain to me better how that is, when Jesus says those who believe in him will never die?
Please also tell me how the people die but their worm that feeds on them do not.
I will not accept an answer where you claim it is just symbolic. If you think you have truth that we should know, then you have yet to convince me. Answer these questions for me and forgive me if you already have. Please answer again right here.
I believe that it is much better, because Christians will be resurrected to eternal life when Jesus returns. Didn't you know that I believed this when you posted? When the wicked are resurrected, they are judged and then go to their second death. Don't you think that being alive forever is much better than being dead forever? I know that I do.
According to Isaiah 66, the worms are feeding on the DEAD BODIES of those who have been slain by the Lord. The dead people who are being eaten by the worms are not the same people as the worms who are eating the dead people.
I do not think that it is just symbolic. Do you think the part in Isaiah 66 where it says the worms are eating DEAD Bodies is symbolic?
Now that I have answered (of course, I have answered all of this before) you will believe me (and the Bible)?
Or will you raise further objections, just because you can't bear to face the truth that the dead are really dead, Jesus really can bring the dead back to life, and that the wicked will NOT receive eternal life from Him, only those who have put their faith in Him.
Please read my previous reply. I'm also going to post this, since you claim that you are unconvinced by the scriptures I've presented. This is "copy-paste", but it is something that I wrote a while ago, and I think you should read it:
Eternal Torment in hell is not a biblical doctrine.
The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever.
They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.
Here is the scriptural proof backing up what I am saying.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.
4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).
5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.
7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.
8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.
15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.
16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.
17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?
19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).
24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.
25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.
27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.
30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.
31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.
33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.
34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!
36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.
37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,
38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed
40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed
41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.
42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.
45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)
47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.
49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.
50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.
51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.
52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6
53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Suffering only temporal........
Suffering only temporal........
ECT is already revealed to be a pernicious teaching and insidious belief. While it makes out the 'sinner' to be the final and ultimate cause in its fate of unending torment...it assumes 'God' to be the force or power sanctioning such suffering....to no end.
Theoritically we may assume that if a soul continues to sin endlessly or is wholly consumed in iniquity...it endures its own self-inflicting punishment or karmic suffering, and this would be the case since all conditions of mind and wrong actions include consequences (whether suffered immediately or in time). Therefore the law of compensation (karma) holds...as long as actions continue to serve as conditional factors in one's experience.
Love is long suffering in its will that the sinner will repent and be restored to harmony with God, for Love's will is for continued life, progress, well-being, survival and co-creation with Spirit. Love's will is Life itself, inspiring the full potential of that divine seed to unfold itself in both time and eternity.
Love's power and principle is greater than sin, unless sin can wholly consume and effect an eternal death in a soul. The divine will of Life itself is greater than death, unless a sinner can reject 'God' so fully as to effect its own extinction, whereby its individual being is disintegrated. In this case of 'annihiliation',...individual sovereignty of 'free will' reigns, if indeed the Gods have given this power to any souls that would choose oblivion.
This places us back in circles however, as I could share logics and supports for eventual universal salvation and restoration for all sentient beings thru 'Christ', whereby 'God' does ultimately triumph in all souls, as the glory of God prevails, and the divine will triumphs in all creation ("all in Christ shall be made alive"...and "God shall be all in all").
Its a matter of reflection, and what the Spirit of God teaches the quiet soul in meditation on these matters, but as long as the divine spirit and principle in man abides and yields its fruit,...there is life and potential.
pj
Suffering only temporal........
ECT is already revealed to be a pernicious teaching and insidious belief. While it makes out the 'sinner' to be the final and ultimate cause in its fate of unending torment...it assumes 'God' to be the force or power sanctioning such suffering....to no end.
Theoritically we may assume that if a soul continues to sin endlessly or is wholly consumed in iniquity...it endures its own self-inflicting punishment or karmic suffering, and this would be the case since all conditions of mind and wrong actions include consequences (whether suffered immediately or in time). Therefore the law of compensation (karma) holds...as long as actions continue to serve as conditional factors in one's experience.
Love is long suffering in its will that the sinner will repent and be restored to harmony with God, for Love's will is for continued life, progress, well-being, survival and co-creation with Spirit. Love's will is Life itself, inspiring the full potential of that divine seed to unfold itself in both time and eternity.
Love's power and principle is greater than sin, unless sin can wholly consume and effect an eternal death in a soul. The divine will of Life itself is greater than death, unless a sinner can reject 'God' so fully as to effect its own extinction, whereby its individual being is disintegrated. In this case of 'annihiliation',...individual sovereignty of 'free will' reigns, if indeed the Gods have given this power to any souls that would choose oblivion.
This places us back in circles however, as I could share logics and supports for eventual universal salvation and restoration for all sentient beings thru 'Christ', whereby 'God' does ultimately triumph in all souls, as the glory of God prevails, and the divine will triumphs in all creation ("all in Christ shall be made alive"...and "God shall be all in all").
Its a matter of reflection, and what the Spirit of God teaches the quiet soul in meditation on these matters, but as long as the divine spirit and principle in man abides and yields its fruit,...there is life and potential.
pj
God's Truth
New member
You did not answer the question I posed. If I am dead and have no conscience then what does it really matter if I will be raised to suffer a little while and die again? I mean, according to you, that is what is happening to all anyway in this life.
I do not think I knew.
If you are dead and have no conscience then it is only bothersome for a short while; nothing different than what you claim happens to all people anyway.
You are not answering the question. What about according to Mark 9:48? Their worms do not die, yet there is an unquenchable fire that is burning. How is it that the worms do not die in that fire? As for the fire not quenched, what does it matter if the fire is not quenched if they are not feeling it anyway? Read this scripture…
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done-- burn with no one to quench it.
Why is the fire not going to be quenched?
Read this scripture…
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Why is the fire eternal if all we are dead and gone?
Again, how are these worms surviving such a fire?
Try again to answer my questions okay?
There is no way you could ever convince me that we do not have a spirit that lives on after the death of our physical bodies. Jesus revealed the truth to me in the scriptures that tell us we have spirits that live on.
However, I am giving you a chance to convince me that being tortured in the lake of fire is not forever.
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
You will have to convince me that this is not more revelation from Jesus about something still hidden in the Old Testament times.
The scriptures say what is raised will be imperishable.
God's Truth
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If someone’s life is being destructed, is that not tormenting?
But you said we do not have a spirit that lives on---so how is it that a man CANNOT kill that part?
But explain then why the fire is “unquenchable”. You have not explained to me what that means to you.
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Again, if a life is being destroyed, it most certainly can mean tortured alive forever.
Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, those who disobeyed long ago. See 1 Peter 3:18-20.
Perish can definitely mean removed from our sight. It does not necessarily mean not existing in any other place.
Jesus also calls those who are physically alive ‘dead.’ JLuke 9:60 esus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.
Since Jesus calls those who are physically alive ‘dead’ then there is reason for me to believe that John 5:24 is about those who are spiritually dead but physically alive.
Jesus is explaining that when they physically die, if they do not repent they will die in their sins and not in forgiveness.
This is about a physical death.
Again, you have not proven to destroy a life is not torturing.
Again, you have not proven to destroy a life is not torturing.
Again, you have not proven that destroying a life is not torturing.
How do you think to be consumed means not to exist anymore?
Again, you have not proven that destroying a life is not torturing.
Again, Jesus calls those who are physically alive ‘dead’. So then, you have not proven it is the death in which you speak.
Again, you have not proven that destroying a life is not torturious.
You have not proven that destroying a life is not torturing.
I will have to finish hopefully sometime today.
Would you mind go over some scriptures and explaining what you think after I finish with the ones you posted?
Mr Godstruth, I answered your questions even though you continue to claim that I haven't. You asked, "How is it better to be a Christian?" I answered, "Because Christians are resurrected to eternal life." I'm very sorry that you do not like that answer, but it is a good answer. You just want to hang on to your doctrine no matter what anybody says. That's fine, just leave me out of it.
Being destroyed simply does not mean the same thing as being tortured, no matter how much you want it to mean that. I'm simply using the regular definitions of words with the usual meanings. I think that if you believe that being destroyed is the same thing as being tortured, you need to prove that somehow.
Why do they want to believe this?
They all claim that they believe the Bible, but that goes out the window when I mention that the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Now "Death" no longer means death, but they insist that "death" means eternal life in hell being tortured. Death doesn't mean eternal life, no matter how much they want to believe that it does.
Why do they want to believe something so terrible, that isn't even true?
God's Truth
New member
Don't lie about us. I believe the Bible that also says people will be tormented with no rest day or night.
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”