Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[godrulz]

They go there at the start of the millennium and are still there 1000 years later, conscious, when Satan and the lost join them. Then it uses a strong phrase that can only be understood as everlasting continuation vs cessation: tormented day and night forever and ever.

You have to totally twist and negate face value reading of Scripture to support your heresy.

 

[Krsto]

They go there at the start of the millennium and are still there 1000 years later, conscious, when Satan and the lost join them. Then it uses a strong phrase that can only be understood as everlasting continuation vs cessation: tormented day and night forever and ever.

You have to totally twist and negate face value reading of Scripture to support your heresy.

Scriptures please.

 

[freelight]

frightening reflections.......

frightening reflections.......

~*~*~

What we have here is a religious belief built on a few passages, metaphors, figurative speech and literary devices. As shared earlier, this doctrine gives no glory to God, defeats his will and denies the fulfillment of his eternal love. It defeats the purpose of life.

But some who are blinded with their own dogmatic assumptions and frightful caricatures of 'God' would have it no other way. This my friends, reflects the sad condition and poor discernment of the believers in it, NOT GOD.

ECT (reconsidered)



pj

 

[godrulz]

Scriptures please.

Revelation chronology...

 

[Tambora]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Biblical.

 

[Timotheos]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Biblical.

The verse that I asked for that says "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever" was never given. I have to assume that it is not in the Bible, therefore the doctrine of ECT is unbiblical.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. The Bible does not say "the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment".
The doctrine of ECT disagrees with what the Bible says, therefore the doctrine of ECT is unbiblical.

Summing up, there are two reasons ECT is unbiblical.
1. The Bible never says it.
2. ECT contradicts what the Bible does say.

That said, there is a very good reason for you to continue to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment.


Tradition.

 

[Tambora]

The verse that I asked for that says "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever" was never given. I have to assume that it is not in the Bible, therefore the doctrine of ECT is unbiblical.

The verse that says, "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will not be in conscious torment forever", was also not given.
I have to assume that it is not in the Bible.
Therefore, the doctrine of the wicked not being in conscious torment forever is unbiblical.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

And when scripture uses the word "death and dead", it has many connotations.
One can be "dead" and still be conscious.

The prodigal son was said to be "dead", but he certainly wasn't unconscious.

Luke 15 KJV
(24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

(32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
​

The Bible does not say "the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment".

And the Bible does not say "the wages of sin is ceasing to be conscious".

 

[Timotheos]

The verse that says, "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will not be in conscious torment forever", was also not given.
I have to assume that it is not in the Bible.
Therefore, the doctrine of the wicked not being in conscious torment forever is unbiblical.

Nice try. But actually it is in the Bible.
"The wicked will perish...like smoke they vanish away" Psalm 37:20
"the wicked will be no more" Psalm 37:10
"the soul who sins shall die" Ezekiel 18:4

There are many more verses like this, that prove that the wicked will die, perish, be destroyed, and NOT be in eternal consciousness of torment forever. I gave three, as that should be enough. I can give many more examples if you wish. But you can't even give one verse that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they will be tormented or tortured alive forever.

Also, you missed a key fact about the prodigal son. He was not dead, even though the father said he was dead. So his condition as a so-called dead person is absolutely NOT the same condition as an actual dead person.

And the Bible does not say "the wages of sin is ceasing to be conscious".

No, it says "for the wages of sin is death". Dead people are not conscious. So your point is actually lost. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. I know that you don't want this to be true, but it is what the Bible says.

 

[resurrected]

But you can't even give one verse that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they will be tormented or tortured alive forever.

Not that you won't disregard.

So why waste our time with you?

If you want to believe something contrary to scripture, go nuts.

 

[Timotheos]

Not that you won't disregard.

So why waste our time with you?

If you want to believe something contrary to scripture, go nuts.

I believe scripture, and nothing that is contrary to scripture.
You are bluffing when you claim that you can give me even one verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they where they will be tormented alive forever. You can't. Go ahead, post it. I won't disregard it. You will be the first to post such a verse.

The wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23 If YOU want to believe something contrary to scripture, (The wages of sin is eternal torment) go nuts yourself. You haven't got a verse to stand on.

 

[Timotheos]

The Bible does NOT EVER say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. Anyone who says that it does is either lying or mistaken.

 

[resurrected]

yes, that's nice

 

[Timotheos]

yes, that's nice

If you want to believe something contrary to scripture, go nuts.

 

[freelight]

Where this is going........

Where this is going........

~*~*~

As we've covered previously, the issue here is concerning how one defines 'death', and the duration of the penalty of 'sin' and its effects in an ultimate or final sense. There are certain metaphysical/ontological issues involved here, among other unknowns and speculations...which leaves 'assumptions' and personal beliefs about such.

Recent posts show that this is sinking to a kindergarten level contest, which only perpetuates the 'merry-go-round', as we must admit that we don't really know with absolute certainty what 'death' fully entails, beyond an assumption or belief relative to its general or specific meaning within any given context...and thats whats really going on here.

Also, anyone can slap on the label 'biblical' to any doctrine or belief, to give it some air of authority which means nothing but to the person applying it. It remains that one cant provide absolute solid evidence that a soul can be totally 'terminated' from existence neither can one prove there are souls being detained by 'God' or STUCK forever in a state of eternal torment as some kind of 'punishment' or 'trapped' forever in outer darkness. We can hypothesize and make the most intelligent/tenable observations or propositions here, but they are just speculations at the end of the day.

In any case,...my previous expose on ECT here remains



paulie

 

[Timotheos]

~*~*~

Recent posts show that this is sinking to a kindergarten level contest,

paulie

resurrected started it.

:banana:

 

[Timotheos]

~*~*~

As we've covered previously, the issue here is concerning how one defines 'death', and the duration of the penalty of 'sin' and its effects in an ultimate or final sense. There are certain metaphysical/ontological issues involved here, among other unknowns and speculations...which leaves 'assumptions' and personal beliefs about such.

Recent posts show that this is sinking to a kindergarten level contest, which only perpetuates the 'merry-go-round', as we must admit that we don't really know with absolute certainty what 'death' fully entails, beyond an assumption or belief relative to its general or specific meaning within any given context...and thats whats really going on here.

Also, anyone can slap on the label 'biblical' to any doctrine or belief, to give it some air of authority which means nothing but to the person applying it. It remains that one cant provide absolute solid evidence that a soul can be totally 'terminated' from existence neither can one prove there are souls being detained by 'God' or STUCK forever in a state of eternal torment as some kind of 'punishment' or 'trapped' forever in outer darkness. We can hypothesize and make the most intelligent/tenable observations or propositions here, but they are just speculations at the end of the day.

In any case,...my previous expose on ECT here remains



paulie

We CAN say whether a doctrine has support from the Bible or doesn't have any supprt from the Bible. For instance, are there any verses in the Bible that say what the poster is saying? "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"The wicked go to hell when they die, where they are tormented alive forever". ??? Can't find it.

I am sick and tired of these people CLAIMING that I don't believe the Bible, I disregard the Bible, I believe something contrary to the Bible, when they can't even produce one piece of evidence that their ugly lies about me are true. They can't even give ONE little verse from the Bible that I don't accept, yet they feel fully justified in claiming that I don't believe the Bible. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. But they feel no shame, I'm ashamed that they call themselves "Christians". I'm ashamed to wear the same label they put on themselves. I don't want people to think that I am like them. They have no shame, no remorse, no common decency.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."
I'm blessed by Jesus Christ because of the poster calling himself "resurrected".

 

[freelight]

different concepts.......

different concepts.......

We CAN say whether a doctrine has support from the Bible or doesn't have any supprt from the Bible. For instance, are there any verses in the Bible that say what the poster is saying? "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

"The wicked go to hell when they die, where they are tormented alive forever". ??? Can't find it.

I am sick and tired of these people CLAIMING that I don't believe the Bible, I disregard the Bible, I believe something contrary to the Bible, when they can't even produce one piece of evidence that their ugly lies about me are true. They can't even give ONE little verse from the Bible that I don't accept, yet they feel fully justified in claiming that I don't believe the Bible. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. But they feel no shame, I'm ashamed that they call themselves "Christians". I'm ashamed to wear the same label they put on themselves. I don't want people to think that I am like them. They have no shame, no remorse, no common decency.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."
I'm blessed by Jesus Christ because of the poster calling himself "resurrected".

Dear Timotheus,

We can say you've explained your 'position' very well so far in the thread,....which has 'amply' covered the issue, plus all our own personal points of view, considerations and perspectives concerning ECT. We might also note that our 'religious ego' can get the best of us sometimes, if we assume that our 'interpretation' or 'assumption' is the most correct (the whole thrust of 'orthodoxy'). I might throw in here, that at least Catholicism was merciful enough to include 'purgatory' for poor miserable sinners to at least have a 'purging' period before entering into the beatific vision. At least they've expanded the window of God's mercy, which many want to shut out entirely.

On another level, after explainging ones own view or position on things, things get delicate as far as tossing pearls to swine. - this is also granting that our own view has enough sanity and wisdom to have the value of pearls in the first place.

How a soul experiences 'life' or 'death' in a spiritual sense is as speculative as the question "Is there life after physical death?"....and even still,....we have to consider the laws and principles that determine the conditions and consequences of thoughts, words and action....back to karmic law (its effects in time and eternity). There's much more than just a 'black & white' or it must either be 'this' or 'that' approach here to such a complex inquiry.

I'd call everyone to step back a little, take a chill pill and re-evaluate the terrain as it were.


in-joy,



pj

 

[Timotheos]

I'd call everyone to step back a little, take a chill pill and re-evaluate the terrain as it were.

pj

I don't see that happening, with people like "resurrected". If he were to apologize and agree to discuss this calmly, rationally, and biblically, then we could make progress.

 

[resurrected]

Why should I waste my time with you?

You're impervious to reason, logic and evidence.


Have fun in your make-believe theology that you've constructed out of whole cloth :wave2:

 

[freelight]

knit your own tapestry....

knit your own tapestry....

Why should I waste my time with you?

You're impervious to reason, logic and evidence.


Have fun in your make-believe theology that you've constructed out of whole cloth :wave2:

If you find such a waste of time, you can afford your attention and dialogue elsewhere

Again,...when dealing with 'beliefs' or 'interpretations',...everyone has one...or one can dispense with such entirely and be free of all 'concepts',...and just enjoy BEING.

One is free to do as he pleases......



pj