Is "soul sleep" a Scriptural doctrine?

[genuineoriginal]

As Jesus could have, but HIS body was resurrected, just as ours will be.

And Jesus Himself was dead when His body was dead, just like we will be when we die.
There is no consciousness between death and resurrection.

 

[glorydaz]

It's more than that. If Abraham could be considered alive in any form, then "He is the God of the Living" doesn't prove the resurrection. If Jesus didn't prove the resurrection when he said that phrase was to prove the resurrection, then he contradicts himself.

Jesus wasn't attempting to prove the resurrection. The Sadducees didn't believe in life after death at all, and they were hoping to trick him into speaking against the law.

They were questioning the very idea of life after death and the state of the dead, and Jesus told them they didn't understand anything about the spiritual realm (how we are as "angels").

Mark 12:23-27 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.​

Jesus was proving a much broader point, that there is life (even when a person has been dead hundreds of years). When God told Moses, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob", He was not saying, "I was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...."

Luke is the one who says it so clearly and should not be ignored.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

God is the God of the living (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)....for all live unto Him. We may not see them, but God does. They are alive in a different realm.

 

[jamie]

Did Jesus die?

 

[glorydaz]

And Jesus Himself was dead when His body was dead, just like we will be when we die.
There is no consciousness between death and resurrection.

That's one opinion. I don't agree. The place of the dead is not unconsciousness.

Jesus assured the thief otherwise. He didn't say anything about being unconscious in the grave.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

Psalm 49:15; 86:13

 

[glorydaz]

Did Jesus die?

His body died. He put it on when He came to dwell among us, and He took it off on the cross.

 

[way 2 go]

Why? Why is there no need for the resurrection?

If a person is alive in heaven, and his body is in the grave here on earth, decaying, wouldn't his body still need to be raised, even though he is alive?

:thumb:

God created people in his likeness with bodies
and God created angels spirits without bodies
God obviously wants us to have bodies .

 

[Rosenritter]

Oh, thanks GO.

That's a lousy argument since the resurrection always refers to the body. Man is composed of more than just a body.

While what Genuine said was not incorrect in itself, he did not state Tyndale's argument. Tyndale reminded us that if there was any "non-bodily" form of life whatsoever, Jesus's words failed to prove the resurrection, and he is thus brought to contradict himself by those who would hold "immortality of a conscious soul" as their first principles.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus wasn't attempting to prove the resurrection. The Sadducees didn't believe in life after death at all, and they were hoping to trick him into speaking against the law.

Matthew 22:29-34 KJV
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
(34) But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Would you care to retract that statement?

 

[Rosenritter]

That's one opinion. I don't agree. The place of the dead is not unconsciousness.

Jesus assured the thief otherwise. He didn't say anything about being unconscious in the grave.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

Psalm 49:15; 86:13

You are sadly misreading the grammar of "today shalt thou be with me in paradise" as the "today" modifies the "shalt" which is the giving of the command... as we have already previously proven is the biblical usage of the term in other passages through the scripture, even including statements from King Saul and King Solomon.

 

[Rosenritter]

His body died. He put it on when He came to dwell among us, and He took it off on the cross.

So he didn't actually die for our sins... and he didn't actually bear the punishment that we would have paid for our sins.

 

[glorydaz]

So he didn't actually die for our sins... and he didn't actually bear the punishment that we would have paid for our sins.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

He then commended His spirit into the Father's hands.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.​

 

[glorydaz]

You are sadly misreading the grammar of "today shalt thou be with me in paradise" as the "today" modifies the "shalt" which is the giving of the command... as we have already previously proven is the biblical usage of the term in other passages through the scripture, even including statements from King Saul and King Solomon.

I read the word as it's written. I don't try and explain it away. I realize you think you've proven your point, but, in fact, you are simply proving your own bias on this issue.

No offense intended.

 

[glorydaz]

Matthew 22:29-34 KJV
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
(34) But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Would you care to retract that statement?

No, but I'll explain it again. The Sadducees did not believe in life after death...much less any resurrection of the body. Jesus, therefore, told them they were not only wrong about death being the end of life, but that life was not what they imagined concerning the resurrected body being like the one we have now. As I said, His answer was much broader than you assume by the word "resurrection".

Look at the tense. I am the God of Abraham.....the living even after all these years. He was making it clear that Abraham was not DEAD as they were claiming. There was not an end of life at the grave as you and they seem to believe.

 

[glorydaz]

While what Genuine said was not incorrect in itself, he did not state Tyndale's argument. Tyndale reminded us that if there was any "non-bodily" form of life whatsoever, Jesus's words failed to prove the resurrection, and he is thus brought to contradict himself by those who would hold "immortality of a conscious soul" as their first principles.

Then I'll say again. Tyndale is wrong.

Let's look further.

Adam Clarke Commentary
I am the God of Abraham - Let it be observed, that Abraham was dead upwards of 300 years before these words were spoken to Moses: yet still God calls himself the God of Abraham, etc. Now Christ properly observes that God is not the God of the dead, (that word being equal, in the sense of the Sadducees, to an eternal annihilation), but of the living; it therefore follows that, if he be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, these are not dead, but alive; alive with God, though they had ceased, for some hundreds of years, to exist among mortals. We may see, from this, that our Lord combats and confutes another opinion of the Sadducees, viz. that there is neither angel nor spirit; by showing that the soul is not only immortal, but lives with God, even while the body is detained in the dust of the earth, which body is afterwards to be raised to life, and united with its soul by the miraculous power of God, of which power they showed themselves to be ignorant when they denied the possibility of a resurrection.

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,.... The Sadducees expressly denied, that the resurrection could be proved out of the law,


Thus our Lord having to do with the same sort of persons, fetches his proof of the doctrine of the resurrection out of the law, and from a passage which respects the covenant relation God stands in to his people, particularly Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and which respects not their souls only, but their bodies also, even their whole persons, body and soul; for God is the God of the whole: and therefore as their souls now live with God, their bodies also will be raised from the dead, that they, with their souls, may enjoy everlasting glory and happiness; which is the grand promise, and great blessing of the covenant of grace,

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living; as all the saints are; for though their bodies are dead, their souls are alive, and their bodies will be raised in consequence of their covenant interest in God, to enjoy an immortal life with him: so the Jews are wont to say, that the righteous, even in their death, are called livingF11:

 

[Rosenritter]

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

He then commended His spirit into the Father's hands.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.​

So besides the scripture saying that he did actually die, you haven't answered the problem that you don't believe Jesus actually bore the full penalty for our sins. If you don't understand what I mean by this, I will explain what you have stated you believe is the penalty of sin, compared to what I have stated I believe is the penalty of sin.

 

[Rosenritter]

Then I'll say again. Tyndale is wrong.

Let's look further.

William Tyndale has far greater credentials and superior recommendation from God than either Adam Clarke or John Gill. Tyndale translated the scriptures from the original languages and lost home, friends, and ultimately his own life in the spread of the gospel. He is called "God's Mattock against the Papacy" by Foxes Book of Martyrs, but perhaps his greatest sign of approval comes from God himself, as his dying prayer of "Open the eyes of the King of England' was granted in a massive world-changing fashion. John Gill and Adam Clarke lack both his skill and his testimony.

Regardless, neither John Gill nor Adam Clarke (mere commentators) were able to answer Tyndale's question: they continue to spew contradiction in their error. The same question has been brought forth here (today and yesteryear) for which no one here has yet been able to successfully answer. If Abraham is alive in any sense, Christ's statement does not prove the resurrection, and given that he said his aim was to prove the resurrection and he gave no other proof, "soul wake" would render Christ's argument worthless.

 

[jamie]

Disembodied spirits are as good as dead since without a physical body they can't function in the physical realm.

 

[Rosenritter]

Matthew 22:29-34 KJV
(29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
(34) But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Would you care to retract that statement?

@glorydaz, I was hoping that your retraction would be a simple thing when shown that the gospel contradicted your statement in short simple words. Perhaps it might help to emphasize the weight of this important statement in that it was repeated not once, not twice, but three times in three gospels? Besides Matthew, there's Mark and Luke as well.

Did you read any of these accounts before stating emphatically that Jesus was not proving the resurrection of the dead?

Mar 12:26-27 KJV
(26) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
(27) He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luk 20:37-38 KJV
(37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
(38) For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

If you admit your mistake you are again in agreement with the gospel, but if you retain that error and deny the gospel account I suppose you are enabled to continue to claim that Abraham is in heaven. Your choice.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That's one opinion. I don't agree. The place of the dead is not unconsciousness.

The state of being dead is the lack of existence, not the lack of consciousness.

Jesus assured the thief otherwise. He didn't say anything about being unconscious in the grave.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

Ah, yes, the misplaced comma that changes the time from future to now.

Luke 23:42-43 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, [JESUS]Verily, I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.[/JESUS]​

Do you know when Jesus will come into His kingdom?

The Misplaced Comma at Luke 23:43 Spoiler Verily, I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke xxiii. 43. This is often quoted as conclusive evidence that the righteous, at death, go immediately into heaven to dwell with Christ. But, strange as it may appear, this evidence hangs on the position of the little comma placed before the word to-day, making the word to-day qualify the verb shall be, in the second member of the sentence. Now, suppose we move the place of the comma, so as to make it read— Verily, I say unto thee to-day, shalt thou be with me in Paradise—This destroys the evidence that good men go to heaven at death. Now, the location of the comma is no part of inspired testimony, but is a thing of modern invention. But, says one, if the word to-day is made a part of the first member of the sentence, and qualifies the verb say, instead of shall be, it is not good sense; for the thief could not think Christ was saying it yesterday or to-morrow. This leads us to examine more closely the word. It is not a noun, in the original; but an adverb, semeron, and does qualify the first expression—I say, and is the same in other instances translated now; which is frequently used without the least regard to definite time. As I should say to my opponent—Now, you are mistaken with regard to what the Saviour said to the thief. Here I do not use the word now, to let my opponent understand he was not mistaken yesterday, to-day or to-morrow; but to give a force to that indicative form of expression. This appears to be the use of the word semeron in the text. Now verily, I say unto thee shalt thou be with me in paradise. When? Listen to the thief's prayer, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Not when thou goest into thy kingdom, at death. But when thou comest into it." Now, according to the assurance Christ gave the thief, when he comes in his kingdom, the thief must be with him. And, when will that be—at the death of a Christian? No. Read Matt. xxv. 31 to 34.

​

 

[genuineoriginal]

No, but I'll explain it again. The Sadducees did not believe in life after death...much less any resurrection of the body. Jesus, therefore, told them they were not only wrong about death being the end of life, but that life was not what they imagined concerning the resurrected body being like the one we have now. As I said, His answer was much broader than you assume by the word "resurrection".

Look at the tense. I am the God of Abraham.....the living even after all these years. He was making it clear that Abraham was not DEAD as they were claiming. There was not an end of life at the grave as you and they seem to believe.

Are you claiming that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already resurrected (and living) at the time of Jesus saying those words?
Jesus spoke of the resurrection as a future event.

Luke 14:14 [JESUS]And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.[/JESUS]​