glorydaz
Well-known member
Rather...different levels of consciousness.
Physically, yes. My body is but a tent in which I dwell.
Are you trying to trick me?
The term life has more than one meaning you know?
Is "soul sleep" a Scriptural doctrine?
- Thread starter GregoryN
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Rather...different levels of consciousness.
Physically, yes. My body is but a tent in which I dwell.
Are you trying to trick me?
The term life has more than one meaning you know?
Rosenritter
New member
1 Kings 22:40 KJV
(40) So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.
Ahab was a particularly wicked king, but was still said to "sleep" the same as David, Solomon, and all the other kings. But there's a better example that comes to mind:
Daniel 12:2 KJV
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Considering the Daniel passage, I don't think that "sleep" as restricted to those who are judged as saints to inherit eternal life.
Rosenritter
New member
You keep using an innuendo that death doesn't actually kill the real person.
Rosenritter
New member
Romans 6:23 KJV
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If your grandson is telling what he knows is an untruth, that is a lie, and according to God's standards, worthy of death. I have seen an infant less than a year old exhibit uncontrolled rage. That is evidence of a sinful nature as well. Laugh, mock, or whatever Glory. God defines sin as the transgression of the law, but that's God's law, not yours.
Argue as you like, but it is written using absolute language. You're arguing that God is wrong.
Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:23 KJV
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Are infants born with the Holy Spirit? Humanity is carnal (fleshly) from conception and at enmity with God. Are you arguing that babies have the Holy Spirit, and at some point they lose it? And even if so, how would you ever attempt to support such a claim?
Romans 8:6-9 KJV
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
I'm not the one that keeps arguing that the scriptures are wrong and God is mistaken. Flawed foundations produce flawed houses, which is why your house keeps crashing on rocks of moral problems like "murder of infants grants them eternal life that God otherwise wouldn't" and contradictions with "Universal Infant Salvation" against clear statements in Romans.
I'm not your enemy for pointing out the contradictions, and it's not like I haven't already shown a better solution that has no such contradictions nor runs aground on scripture.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Simply because I know we are more than the tent in which we dwell here on earth.
So sue me. :chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep, God's law not the parents unreasonable demands. "Uncontrolled rage"? :chuckle:
]Matthew 18:2-3
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Yep "absolute language" and simply written, too. You're saying Jesus is wrong. He tells us to be as little children, and you claim children are sinful little demons. You blame some sinful nature rather than the fact that little children are total innocents reacting to their environment learning to live in it.
Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Nope, I stick with what Scripture says.
Alright. Here's a little point of fact. Just because you accuse me of arguing scripture is wrong and God is mistaken, doesn't make it so. In fact, the next time you accuse me falsely, we can go back to open warfare.
Oh, you mean those clear statements in Romans that you fail to understand. There is something important called, "It is written" concerning those statements you toss around so glibly that would make those verses clear if you took the time to check them out.
:rotfl: My my you do think highly of yourself, don't you?
genuineoriginal
New member
Ecclesiastes 12:6 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. |
Do any of these metaphors for death imply a state of consciousness?
way 2 go
Well-known member
There is
1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
2 physical death Mat 8:22
3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
4 death as a place Rev 20:13
Jesus said, "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)
glorydaz
Well-known member
Thank you...which proves that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are living. It is only their flesh that was dead for hundreds of years.
Matt. 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Rosenritter
New member
It proves the OPPOSITE. Christ's use of the phrase to prove the resurrection leaves that doctrine completely incompatible and at odds with the resurrection.
“And when he proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, ‘If God be their God, they be in heaven, for is not the God of the dead;’ there he stealeth away Christ’s argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven, which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite and maketh Christ’s argument of none effect. For when Christ allegeth the scripture, that God is Abraham’s God, and addeth to, that God is not God of the dead but of the living, and so proveth that Abraham must rise again, I deny Christ’s argument, and I say with M. More, that Abraham is yet alive, not because of the resurrection, but because his soul is in heaven.
(William Tyndale)
glorydaz
Well-known member
I can't make heads or tails of that quote by Tyndale. Sorry. :idunno:
I do know that the resurrection always refers to the body.
The fact that Abraham was dead is only speaking of his mortal body of flesh.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
genuineoriginal
New member
Here is the gist of Tyndale's argument:
If they are already living in heaven, there is no need for the resurrection.
Why? Why is there no need for the resurrection?
If a person is alive in heaven, and his body is in the grave here on earth, decaying, wouldn't his body still need to be raised, even though he is alive?
Rosenritter
New member
It's more than that. If Abraham could be considered alive in any form, then "He is the God of the Living" doesn't prove the resurrection. If Jesus didn't prove the resurrection when he said that phrase was to prove the resurrection, then he contradicts himself.
Just something to add here: it is no slight to the glory of God for the saints to be truly dead until the resurrection. It is no pain to us and no lesser glory to be raised all together at the greatest triumphant moment in history. The resurrection of the dead is sufficient and needs no other help, it is wonderful, it is glorious, it is how God said he will grant us life and eternal life.
And incidentally (touching another thread)... it also means that no infant (or any child of God) is in torment right now awaiting judgment. Judgment always proceeds punishment. The dead are raised and then judged, then punishment (of those who are judged wicked) follows judgment .
Rosenritter
New member
He would already be alive in some sense, and "he is the God of the living" would be already fulfilled in the "happiness of Abraham in heaven." In very fact, this is how "soul wakefulness" advocates normally try to apply that passage (as Sir Thomas More and Glory both demonstrated.)
genuineoriginal
New member
If everyone is already an immortal soul, there is no reason for this mortal body to put on an immortal body.
We could just continue living forever as an immortal soul (in heaven or in hell).
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. |
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh, thanks GO.
That's a lousy argument since the resurrection always refers to the body. Man is composed of more than just a body.
glorydaz
Well-known member
As Jesus could have, but HIS body was resurrected, just as ours will be.
It's this body of flesh that faces corruption....not the spiritual body we will be given later.