Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Dispensation of Grace?

glorydaz

Well-known member
Sounds like typical Twain hyperbole.

Actually quite descriptive, and verifiable in newspapers. Rest assured, a lot of research has gone into this. Newspaper and pictures even of Jews being drawn to the land standing with overalls planting trees, etc. No one wanted to live there. God had taken care of that as we see here. Jeremiah 25:11-18.

So it wasn't in 1948?

That would be when they were born as a nation. isaiah 66:8

The land will really flourish when God restores the kingdom of Israel with Christ as their king!
Indeed it will.
Firstly, Israel does NOT currently occupy the land that God gave to Jacob. There are many parts of that land that are occupied by Israel's enemies.

They dwell in the heart of Jerusalem, and God knows its boundaries. The Jews dwell in the land and they even speak their original language. The only thing they’re lacking is a “peace treaty“ where they are allowed to build the third temple. I expect we’ll be gone by then.
Israel does NOT "dwell safely therein" nor "dwell with confidence". They dwell in fear of their enemies constant attacks.

God has definitely NOT "executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them;".

The heathen around Israel are NOT currently "bearing their shame". They are proudly attacking Israel.

Yet future... all of what you posted above.
It can all happen in the proverbial blink of an eye. As I believe the stage is being set.
 

Right Divider

Body part
They dwell in the heart of Jerusalem, and God knows its boundaries.
When God fulfills those prophecies they will dwell safely in ALL of the land of Israel.
The Jews dwell in the land and they even speak their original language.
They dwell in most of the land... but NOT all of it as they will when those prophecies are fulfilled.
It can all happen in the proverbial blink of an eye. As I believe the stage is being set.
Thanks for conceding my point.

I asked you to show me the FULFILLED prophecies.
You showed me some prophecies that you now admit have not been fulfilled.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
When God fulfills those prophecies they will dwell safely in ALL of the land of Israel.

They dwell in most of the land... but NOT all of it as they will when those prophecies are fulfilled.

Thanks for conceding my point.

I asked you to show me the FULFILLED prophecies.
You showed me some prophecies that you now admit have not been fulfilled.
No, I showed you fulfilled and partially fulfilled.
Today, Israel is a Nation, and they were officially born in one day. fufilled.

Where do you find ALL the land before the Lord sets up his kingdom? Returned and gathered into the land. It has a name, but it has no king as yet. In other words, dry bones. I imagine if you did a bit of research you’d be surprised what you’d find. I shouldn’t have to be doing all the looking. I’m old and living off grid.
 

Right Divider

Body part
No, I showed you fulfilled and partially fulfilled.
Today, Israel is a Nation, and they were officially born in one day. fufilled.
Again, this is YOUR claim (and many) but it is unsubstantiated. You believe that it's true but that's it.
Where do you find ALL the land before the Lord sets up his kingdom?
I was talking about the the prophecies that talk about "the land that God gave to Jacob". That land is NOT in control of the current nation of Israel.
Returned and gathered into the land.
Not complete per scripture.
It has a name, but it has no king as yet.
Indeed, it is mostly unbelieving. Hardly a confirmation of scripture.
In other words, dry bones.
The dry bones were ALL taken to the land.
I imagine if you did a bit of research you’d be surprised what you’d find.
Thanks for the insult.
I shouldn’t have to be doing all the looking. I’m old and living off grid.
Let me know when you find some actual fulfilled prophecies regarding Israel.
Not just the "at any moment" kind.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The difference is…..it will happen. it is written. 2 Peter:1-4

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:​

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

We know the Lord has two more comings. One when we meet Him in the air, and one to judge. Never before in human history have the times and events lined up with Prophecy the way they are now. It was too soon back when we were saying they had things before, but now, oh boy, we are at the door.


Are we worried? We shouldn’t be, except for the unsaved, which is why it’s so wonderful having the internet to spread the Gospel. Paul tells us….

2 Thess. 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
We MAY well be at the door or we may not be. I'm telling you, from experience, if you look for reasons to think things are "lining up" you'll be able to find them. That isn't to say that we shouldn't look but merely that we aught not get too convinced that we hear someone grabbing the door knob. I was 19 years old when Dr. Whisenant had a big chunk of the Christian church in an uproar, to the point that there were people selling their homes and doing all kinds of things that can't be undone, because of what I personally thought at the time was a very well thought out little book he put out called "88 Reason Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988". Today, I understand that he had ALL 88 reasons wrong! Imagine that! Imagine writing a book about 88 reasons for something and not getting even one single reason correct. Astonishing! You should find a copy and read that book! I'd just about bet that you'd be surprised at the number of those 88 reasons that are identical to things you believe right now.

The worst part about Dr. Whisenant, who I'm sure was a well meaning guy, was that after the rapture failed to happen as predicted, rather than dropping it immediately, he put out book after book with new dates for the rapture, his last prediction being 1994. His greatest contribution to Christianity is to serve as an example of just how possible it is to be simultaneously VERY VERY convinced while being just completely wrong. A sobering thogut for all of us.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Again, this is YOUR claim (and many) but it is unsubstantiated. You believe that it's true but that's it.

I was talking about the the prophecies that talk about "the land that God gave to Jacob". That land is NOT in control of the current nation of Israel.

Not complete per scripture.

Indeed, it is mostly unbelieving. Hardly a confirmation of scripture.

The dry bones were ALL taken to the land.

Thanks for the insult.

Let me know when you find some actual fulfilled prophecies regarding Israel.
Not just the "at any moment" kind.
Insult? Read into my words whatever floats your boat, but I meant them as encouragement to look once again into prophecy. The time is ripe. That is all I meant.

Since you seem to reject the fact that the Jews have returned to their land, as prophesied, I won’t keep “insulting” you with my thoughts on this issue.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
We MAY well be at the door or we may not be. I'm telling you, from experience, if you look for reasons to think things are "lining up" you'll be able to find them. That isn't to say that we shouldn't look but merely that we aught not get too convinced that we hear someone grabbing the door knob. I was 19 years old when Dr. Whisenant had a big chunk of the Christian church in an uproar, to the point that there were people selling their homes and doing all kinds of things that can't be undone, because of what I personally thought at the time was a very well thought out little book he put out called "88 Reason Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988". Today, I understand that he had ALL 88 reasons wrong! Imagine that! Imagine writing a book about 88 reasons for something and not getting even one single reason correct. Astonishing! You should find a copy and read that book! I'd just about bet that you'd be surprised at the number of those 88 reasons that are identical to things you believe right now.

The worst part about Dr. Whisenant, who I'm sure was a well meaning guy, was that after the rapture failed to happen as predicted, rather than dropping it immediately, he put out book after book with new dates for the rapture, his last prediction being 1994. His greatest contribution to Christianity is to serve as an example of just how possible it is to be simultaneously VERY VERY convinced while being just completely wrong. A sobering thogut for all of us.
Yes, those date setters didn’t do a good work, but that shouldn’t stop people from seeing what’s going on in the world today, and how it’s lining up with the Bible. Since Israel became a nation, in fulfillment of prophecy, we watch as all nations turn against them. Just as predicted. When people panic because of what they’re seeing in the world today, it can be a comfort to know this is all in God’s control, and when we preach the gospel to the lost, they can see God is at work even today.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Insult? Read into my words whatever floats your boat, but I meant them as encouragement to look once again into prophecy. The time is ripe. That is all I meant.
I'm quite familiar with prophecy and current events.
Current events are not a fulfillment of prophecies from the OT scripture about Israel.
Since you seem to reject the fact that the Jews have returned to their land, as prophesied, I won’t keep “insulting” you with my thoughts on this issue.
Again, for the who knows how manyth time, that is a claim without support.

You need to provide some evidence that the current nation of Israel is the fulfillment to that scripture. I think that you are seeing what you want to see. Many people agree with you and many don't.

I've already demonstrated clearly that the scriptures that you quoted are "at hand" (at any moment, according to you). They are not being fulfilled at the present time. Israel (God's people) are currently LO-AMMI per Hosea.

The last two thousand years are very much like the 400 years before Christ. God is silent with regards to speaking to His people, Israel.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I'm quite familiar with prophecy and current events.
Current events are not a fulfillment of prophecies from the OT scripture about Israel.
Are you saying there is no prophecy at all being fulfilled during the church age?
You need to provide some evidence that the current nation of Israel is the fulfillment to that scripture.
God tells us Israel will never cease to exist. What other nation would they be?
I've already demonstrated clearly that the scriptures that you quoted are "at hand" (at any moment, according to you). They are not being fulfilled at the present time. Israel (God's people) are currently LO-AMMI per Hosea.

The last two thousand years are very much like the 400 years before Christ. God is silent with regards to speaking to His people, Israel.
Alright, what about the land blooming after being desolate? What about all the Jews that have been scattered. Do you believe they are ethnic Jews living in Israel along with all those who have returned from being scattered?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Are you saying there is no prophecy at all being fulfilled during the church age?
Firstly, I don't call it "the church age". I call it the dispensation of the grace of God.

Eph 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:​
Secondly, no... I don't think that God is fulfilling prophecies with a fallen people that are not His people (lo-ammi). When the body of Christ is removed, there will be lots of fulfillment of Israel's prophecy.

God tells us Israel will never cease to exist.
If that is true, then Israel cannot be "reborn" in 1948.
What other nation would they be?
Perhaps a man-made attempt to do what only God can do.
Alright, what about the land blooming after being desolate?
What about it? The land was not "desolate".

desolate /dĕs′ə-lĭt, dĕz′-/

adjective​

  1. Devoid of inhabitants; deserted.
  2. Barren; lifeless.
    "the rocky, desolate surface of the moon."
  3. Feeling, showing, causing, or expressing sadness or loneliness. synonym: sad.
    Similar: sad
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

What about all the Jews that have been scattered.
The Jews have been scattered many times. So what about them?
Do you believe they are ethnic Jews living in Israel along with all those who have returned from being scattered?
I don't really understand the question.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel(Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.

I know very well what desolate means. So consider this a tit for tat.
 

Right Divider

Body part
The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth.
The "Church" (i.e., the church which is His body, the body of Christ) did not begin at Pentecost. That church (the body of Christ) began in Acts 9 with the calling of Paul as its first member.

1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

There was already a "church" in the wilderness. Why not start there?

Acts 7:38 (AKJV/PCE)​
(7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​
It's easy to see that no church began on that lawfully required Jewish feast day:

Acts 2:41 (AKJV/PCE)​
(2:41) ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace.
No, it does not. Acts 2 was a continuation of everything that God was already doing to and through Israel. No body of Christ for some time after that. Paul was the ONE given the dispensation of the grace of God, as I showed you already.

Eph 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:​

Note: given to ME (Paul).
In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel(Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.”
That stuff is ALL related to Israel and God's dealings with that nation. The dispensation of the grace of God came years later... when God called Paul.
Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.
You are confused because you've believed what I call "the myths of Churchianity".
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
This is the National Anthem of Israel.

As long as within our hearts
The Jewish soul sings,
As long as forward to the East
To Zion, looks the eye –
Our hope is not yet lost,
It is two thousand years old,
To be a free people in our land
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

Yes, a nation that was “born in a day“. Israel is fulfilling prophecy as we speak. Antisemitism is sweeping across the globe. Jews are flocking to their land. As believers, we need to be praying for God’s chosen people.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The "Church" (i.e., the church which is His body, the body of Christ) did not begin at Pentecost. That church (the body of Christ) began in Acts 9 with the calling of Paul as its first member.

1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

There was already a "church" in the wilderness. Why not start there?

Acts 7:38 (AKJV/PCE)​
(7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​
It's easy to see that no church began on that lawfully required Jewish feast day:

Acts 2:41 (AKJV/PCE)​
(2:41) ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.


No, it does not. Acts 2 was a continuation of everything that God was already doing to and through Israel. No body of Christ for some time after that. Paul was the ONE given the dispensation of the grace of God, as I showed you already.

Eph 3:2 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:​

Note: given to ME (Paul).

That stuff is ALL related to Israel and God's dealings with that nation. The dispensation of the grace of God came years later... when God called Paul.

You are confused because you've believed what I call "the myths of Churchianity".
Yes, I know you believe everyone is confused. In the same way I can see you’re confused. MAD has some good points, but it causes its adherents to wear blinders. Kinda like mules with blinders.
 

Right Divider

Body part
This is the National Anthem of Israel.

As long as within our hearts
The Jewish soul sings,
As long as forward to the East
To Zion, looks the eye –
Our hope is not yet lost,
It is two thousand years old,
To be a free people in our land
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

Yes, a nation that was “born in a day“. Israel is fulfilling prophecy as we speak. Antisemitism is sweeping across the globe. Jews are flocking to their land. As believers, we need to be praying for God’s chosen people.
Since you are a big fan of prophecy, you should look into the prophecy of LO-AMMI.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yes, I know you believe everyone is confused.
Not everyone, only those that fail to rightly divide.
In the same way I can see you’re confused.
Prove it. I've shown you many details that, apparently, you simply ignore.
MAD has some good points, but it causes its adherents to wear blinders.
False claims will get you nowhere.
Kinda like mules with blinders.
Thanks for your continued insults.

P.S. You addressed NOTHING from my post. You simply give your vague opinions. Don't be so shallow.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Yes, those date setters didn’t do a good work, but that shouldn’t stop people from seeing what’s going on in the world today, and how it’s lining up with the Bible.
You haven't read the book and so this is an understandable response. The fact is that he didn't set a specific date, which was part of his own argument. He wasn't a kook or a cult leader. He was a very normal, highly intelligent pew sitting Christian that happened to have a passion for end times prophecy and who made what really amounts to a single error in regards to a major premise which in turn lead to incorrect doctrine and eventually to writing a book filled with 88 incorrect reasons to believe that the rapture was about to occur.

Since Israel became a nation, in fulfillment of prophecy,
Which prophecy does that fulfill? Be specific.

....we watch as all nations turn against them. Just as predicted.
Predicted where? Be specific.

When people panic because of what they’re seeing in the world today, it can be a comfort to know this is all in God’s control, and when we preach the gospel to the lost, they can see God is at work even today.
Most people see what they want to see, whether there's any good reason to see it is another question.
 
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Right Divider

Body part

When Did the Church Begin?​

From: https://graceambassadors.com/midacts/when-did-the-church-begin

Justin Johnson

When the church began is an age old debate. But what is meant by “when did the church begin?”
To ask when the church began is not to ask when the church was first in the mind of God. This would not distinguish it from the beginning of all things, since God purposed all things before the world began (1 Cor 2:7; 2 Tim 1:9).
It is not to ask when did Christ begin, since that is an altogether different question. Christ as the Son is eternal and has no beginning. His humanity began with the virgin conception. The glorified Christ in heaven began with his resurrection and ascension.
To ask when the church began is a search for the first potentiality of church ministry. The beginning of the church cannot be found where the ministry of the church is absent or impossible.
However, the most popular theories regarding when the church began do just that.

Theory: The church began at the first mention of a people of God.

If this be true, then we would find a church in the wilderness with Moses (Acts 7:35). After all, ‘church’ simply means congregation of God’s people. This is the position held by those who believe in only one people of God throughout the Bible.
This simplistic view of the church neglects to appreciate the vast differences in nature and operation of Israel then and the church today.
It could be said the only way the church today resembles the church of the wilderness (Israel) is that both are of God.
Israel in the wilderness is hardly the ministry pattern for the church today.

Theory: The church began when Christ was first preached.

If this be true, then the church began with John the Baptist, the forerunner, and the Messiah’s ministry of the kingdom before the cross.
Whereas Israel had not yet received its Messiah, Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, the promised Messiah (Matt 16:16-18).
However, at this time there is still a general absence of the church’s ministry as evidenced from Peter’s ignorance of the cross (Matt 16:21-23).
In the Messiah’s ministry, salvation was of the Jews (John 4:22); ministry did not include the Gentiles (Matt 10:5; Matt 15:24-26); they were under the law (Matt 5:17-19, 23:2-3); and, most importantly, when they preached the gospel of the kingdom they did not understand the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Mark 9:31-32)!
The work of the cross would most definitely be required for the church to minister Christ and him crucified (1 Cor 2:2). No, that the church began before the cross will not work.

Theory: The church began when Christ resurrected and sent the Holy Ghost from heaven.

If this be true then the church began with Peter and the disciples at Pentecost. This is the most popular answer to when the church began.
Peter and the disciples knew of Christ’s death and resurrection according to the scriptures. The resurrection of Christ is necessary for the church to exist.
They were baptized with the Holy Ghost empowering them to speak and to act. The Spirit is necessary for the church to exist.
Certainly the church could not begin earlier than this point. However, the presence of things that are necessary for the church to operate does not mean the church is in operation.
A look at the ministry of the “church in Jerusalem” at Pentecost will reveal that its operation does not align with that given to church today.
Nothing that happened in Peter’s Pentecostal ministry was according to the mystery of Christ and the church. Nothing Peter preached at Pentecost was the subject of the mystery of Christ.
Everything he preached about Christ, his death, and resurrection was spoken by the prophets since the world began (Acts 2:16, 2:25, 3:21).
Peter did not expound on the nature of the new creature of Christ (2 Cor 5:17); or the unsearchable riches of God’s grace (Eph 3:8); or the union of the church with Christ, the fellowship of the mystery (Eph 3:9; Eph 4:3-6; 1 Cor 10:16).
He spoke only of those things that were foretold by the prophets about Christ, the kingdom, and salvation (Acts 3:24, 4:12).
The church which is the body of Christ operates according to the mystery of Christ (Eph 5:32, 1 Cor 2:7, Rom 16:25).
Filled with the Spirit, the disciples in Acts 2 sold all their possessions (Acts 2:44-45); continued in the temple (Acts 3:1); ministered to Israel only (Acts 2:22, 3:12); preached prophecy (Acts 3:18-22); and performed the supernatural signs of the kingdom (Acts 4:22).
Their ministry was a continuation of what had been preached before (Acts 1:22). Their message had changed, but only slightly, and it was certainly no mystery hidden from ages past (Col 1:26).
They were not operating according to the spiritual realities of the mystery church when Peter slew Ananias and Sapphira in the Spirit (Acts 5:1-10).
If the church began at Pentecost the Spirit that empowered them certainly did not want these apostles to know about it.

Theory: The church began when God revealed it.

“This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” – Eph 5:32
The origin of the church’s ministry cannot be found in the wilderness with Moses, in Israel with the Messiah, or in Jerusalem at Pentecost.
When God revealed the knowledge of the mystery concerning Christ and His church to Paul, the ministry of the church began, and with it the pattern and origin of the church of today.
“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery…” – Col 1:25-26
Before Paul the mystery operation of the church was kept secret. It was not possible anyone could minister according to it.
The confusion over when the church began can be attributed to the general ignorance of the mystery of Christ and His church revealed to the apostle Paul.

Published: July 19, 2014
Last Modified: April 14, 2018
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Not everyone, only those that fail to rightly divide.

Prove it. I've shown you many details that, apparently, you simply ignore.

False claims will get you nowhere.

Thanks for your continued insults.

P.S. You addressed NOTHING from my post. You simply give your vague opinions. Don't be so shallow.
Oh, please

MY continued insults? 😂

”false claims”
”vague opinions”
”shallow”
 
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