Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

Lon

Well-known member
You off to the races friend with a different subject matter.
Just as long as you agree. People in Christ are not under the Law, it is under them through Christ. By nature, you will naturally want to do whatever is in keeping with Christ. The Law is unnecessary. You can encourage, but if you try and tell someone they should 'quit swearing' it is extrinsic. Instead: "Spend time with Christ, this too will be taken care of as you follow Him." I appreciate anyone 'trying' but they shouldn't be guilting themselves. If Christ is in them, they will desire to be like Him. The desire is half or all the battle. Works aren't the mark. Them in Christ is. We likely agree, so it'd be you off to the races. I'm pretty sure there is nothing here you disagreed with in the first place.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Just as long as you agree. People in Christ are not under the Law, it is under them through Christ. By nature, you will naturally want to do whatever is in keeping with Christ. The Law is unnecessary. You can encourage, but if you try and tell someone they should 'quit swearing' it is extrinsic. Instead: "Spend time with Christ, this too will be taken care of as you follow Him." I appreciate anyone 'trying' but they shouldn't be guilting themselves. If Christ is in them, they will desire to be like Him. The desire is half or all the battle. Works aren't the mark. Them in Christ is. We likely agree, so it'd be you off to the races. I'm pretty sure there is nothing here you disagreed with in the first place.
You off topic. Do you know what the topic is and what my comments are related to it ?
 

Lon

Well-known member
N

Nobody will ever enter heaven if he does not obey God's command for him to be reconciled to God.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
"Obedience" is a difficult theological concept, because it needs to be defined and afterwards, clarified as to the context. Obedience for the Lord Jesus Christ simply means 'listened and did.' For you and I, obedience is part of what we are able to do as new creations. We cannot please God in the flesh. "Be reconciled to God" might be seen as obedience" as you suggest, but Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 8:2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit
 

marke

Well-known member
"Obedience" is a difficult theological concept, because it needs to be defined and afterwards, clarified as to the context. Obedience for the Lord Jesus Christ simply means 'listened and did.' For you and I, obedience is part of what we are able to do as new creations. We cannot please God in the flesh. "Be reconciled to God" might be seen as obedience" as you suggest, but Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 8:2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit
When God tells a sinner he must be reconciled to God if that sinner refuses to be reconciled to God that sinner will go to hell. When God tells a sinner he must be born again if that sinner refuses to be born again he will go to hell.
 

beloved57

Well-known member

Here is a article I came across that sets forth the truth from scripture, that Gods People were saved, justified, not by their obedience, but by the obedience of Jesus Christ alone !

JUSTIFIED BY THE DEATH AND OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST


Romans 4:25

[Christ] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

In these passages the Bible speaks of justification as a work accomplished by Christ 2000 years ago as He obeyed the law and died on the cross for His people.

Christ went to the cross, not as a private person, but as the Representative and Substitute of His sheep. He died, not for sins He had committed, but for the sins of all whom He represented.

Their sins were legally charged (imputed) to His account so that God the Father was just to punish His holy, harmless, undefiled Son, for sins.

Christ did all this in order to establish a righteousness for His people so that God could be just to justify them, the ungodly. This was completely accomplished 2000 years ago (John 17:4; John 19:30) so much that God’s elect in the Old Testament were justified based on this righteousness even before it was accomplished in time, and God’s elect in the New Testament era are saved based on its having been accomplished in time

 

marke

Well-known member

Here is a article I came across that sets forth the truth from scripture, that Gods People were saved, justified, not by their obedience, but by the obedience of Jesus Christ alone !

JUSTIFIED BY THE DEATH AND OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST


Romans 4:25

[Christ] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

In these passages the Bible speaks of justification as a work accomplished by Christ 2000 years ago as He obeyed the law and died on the cross for His people.

Christ went to the cross, not as a private person, but as the Representative and Substitute of His sheep. He died, not for sins He had committed, but for the sins of all whom He represented.

Their sins were legally charged (imputed) to His account so that God the Father was just to punish His holy, harmless, undefiled Son, for sins.

Christ did all this in order to establish a righteousness for His people so that God could be just to justify them, the ungodly. This was completely accomplished 2000 years ago (John 17:4; John 19:30) so much that God’s elect in the Old Testament were justified based on this righteousness even before it was accomplished in time, and God’s elect in the New Testament era are saved based on its having been accomplished in time

There is no doubt that all have sinned, that the judgment came upon all, and that the free gift was made possible for all to receive if only they willingly choose to receive it God's way.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
There is no doubt that all have sinned, that the judgment came upon all, and that the free gift was made possible for all to receive if only they willingly choose to receive it God's way.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Justification did come upon all men that are Justified, since all men without exception arent Justified, the all is limited to the Elect who Christ was obedient for !
 

marke

Well-known member
Justification did come upon all men that are Justified, since all men without exception arent Justified, the all is limited to the Elect who Christ was obedient for !
You limit God. God speaks to the hearts of all sinners and those who eject the light deservedly end up in hell in spite of the fact that God has no pleasure in their choice of death over life.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You limit God. God speaks to the hearts of all sinners and those who eject the light deservedly end up in hell in spite of the fact that God has no pleasure in their choice of death over life.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
God limited the Obedience of Christ as to be only for the Elect, as many as He gave the Son Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Now all for whom Christ died for receive Justification of life Rom 5:18


Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Do you deny that ?
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Since Romans 10:9 has been thrown around a lot on this thread (and I admit there are portions of the thread that I really just skimmed or skipped over), I wanted to point something out :

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:8-9

The first point is that we already have a command : Confess.

But the second point is that Paul goes on to explain what precedes that salvation :

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:10-15

Paul makes the point that that confession is loaded with faith and that faith comes from hearing the Word preached. And in that second passage is buried verse 13. That whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. We hear the name of the Lord used in many contexts every day. But who actually calls on the name of the Lord? One who believes. And who believes? One whose heart has been changed by God. One may well say they believe, but the calling upon the Lord comes only from a heart that believes that He saves. The analogy I think works best is the one who says they believe in a parachute but won't put it on. They either don't believe they need it or they don't believe it will work. But if they do put it on, they are actively trusting in it. Is that a work? It is, but is it that faith in the parachute which actively saves? No. It's the parachute that does all the saving work. All you do is trust the parachute enough to put it on and jump. That's the parallel to confessing Christ. Is that a work? Maybe. And it is absolutely essential to salvation. But does it save? Absolutely not. If it did, that would be salvation by works.

EDIT : My opinion is the instaneous view of salvation has done understanding of this a great disservice. As soon as you call salvation something that happens in a moment and emphasize that over the evidence of a lifetime walk, you get these debates that are endless - debates over words that ignore the fruit of a whole life in favor of the power found in a single moment. The moment of salvation is often spectacular, but it is only the beginning.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
When God tells a sinner he must be reconciled to God if that sinner refuses to be reconciled to God that sinner will go to hell. When God tells a sinner he must be born again if that sinner refuses to be born again he will go to hell.
Again, it is part and parcel to coming to Christ. Nobody will call on the name of the Lord to be saved, if they don't want either Him, or His salvation, so the two are intertwined inseparably. As I said, Obedience needs defining. To me it is just listening and being on board.

Read Nikolai's parachute analogy just above too (2nd paragraph from the bottom)!

I also go further on 'putting a parachute on' : 1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

John 15:5 Colossians 1:17 etc.
 
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marke

Well-known member
God limited the Obedience of Christ as to be only for the Elect, as many as He gave the Son Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
God does not give Jesus the right to save those who refuse to believe the Light God has clearly revealed not them.

Romans 1:19-21

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​



Now all for whom Christ died for receive Justification of life Rom 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Do you deny that ?
No, I do not deny that all have sinned and all are under the curse of condemnation until such time as Jesus draws them to salvation by His Holy Spirit. Those who believe and receive the Light from the Holy Ghost will be saved and delivered from condemnation. Those who reject the light will be damned.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God does not give Jesus the right to save those who refuse to believe the Light God has clearly revealed not them.

Romans 1:19-21​

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.​

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​




No, I do not deny that all have sinned and all are under the curse of condemnation until such time as Jesus draws them to salvation by His Holy Spirit. Those who believe and receive the Light from the Holy Ghost will be saved and delivered from condemnation. Those who reject the light will be damned.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
God limited the Obedience of Christ as to be only for the Elect, as many as He gave the Son Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
 

marke

Well-known member
God limited the Obedience of Christ as to be only for the Elect, as many as He gave the Son Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Fake Bible verse: "For God so loved the world and hated everyone else that He gave Jesus to save the world and nobody else."
 
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