Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[Jerry Shugart]

OZOS wrote: "NO ONE has eternal life until AFTER Jesus dies on the cross, is raised from the dead and the Holy Spirit is given to dwell in those who believe or have believe

You continue to deny the plain words of the lord Jesus here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).

The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life."

According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth. But OZOS denies the Lord's plain words.

 

[OZOS]

OZOS wrote: "NO ONE has eternal life until AFTER Jesus dies on the cross, is raised from the dead and the Holy Spirit is given to dwell in those who believe or have believe

You continue to deny the plain words of the lord Jesus here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5;24).

The Greek words translated "believes" and "has" are in the present tense which means that when the Lord Jesus walked the earth those who were believing had eternal life right then and there. The Lord Jesus also said that those believing at that time are "crossed from death unto life."

According to the Lord Jesus believers were receiving eternal life while he still walked the earth. But OZOS denies the Lord's plain words.

Nope, I affirm the words of Jesus, and have every single time you've quoted them.

Whosoever hears the the words of Jesus and believes Him who sent Him, has eternal life, will not be judged, and has crossed over from death to life. That is an absolute promise, from Jesus. Just like the following...

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Once again, Jesus says "He who believes in me" and He affirms what will happen... they will do greater works! When? When He goes to the Father.

So, according to Jerry, Jesus is lying here, because every time Jesus says "He who believes in me" the believer will receive what Jesus said at that very moment.

Here is another example...

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."


Just as the verse you quoted affirms what happens when someone believes, so does this verse, but Jesus elaborates here, and not in your verse. I'm sure Jesus thinks your an idiot for thinking that He had to add "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." every time He said "He who believes in Me".

Thankfully, Jesus made it easy, for false teachers, like you, to be exposed.

The apostle Paul is perfectly clear that ONLY those who have the Spirit dwelling in them, belong to Him. According to the pervert, Jerry, men have eternal life without having the Spirit of God dwelling in them or that they belong to Jesus.

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. " Romans 8:9

Jerry calls Jesus and Paul "liars", and claims that someone can have eternal life without the Holy Spirit. He does this, because he knows that he does not have the Holy Spirit, and he falsely claims that he has eternal life.

Either is Paul is lying in this verse, or Jerry is. Anyone who believes in Jesus, knows it's Jerry.

Jerry contradicts himself, and is too stupid to realize it...

According to the Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit would not be sent until the Lord Jesus departed the earth:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:7).

I have quoted this same verse to Jerry many times, and he still claims that men can have eternal life without the Holy Spirit, which contradicts what Paul said in Romans 8:9

Jerry is a double-minded buffoon.

He repeatedly says that ONLY the CLV is a correct translation of the Bible, which was devised by one man, a cultist by the name of A.E. Knoch.

Jerry is on this site to recruit followers to his ant-Christ cult. Don't be deceived by him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

OZOS wrote: "He repeatedly says that ONLY the CLV is a correct translation of the Bible, which was devised by one man, a cultist by the name of A.E. Knoch."

I merely pointed out that in the case of John 20;22 the CLV got it right:

It is not possible that the following translation is correct:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit."(John20:22).

The Lord Jesus had not yet gone away to heaven, and He said that the Holy spirit will not come unto the disciples until He departed:


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (Jn.16:7).

So John 20;22 is a mis-translation. here is a correct translation:

"And saying this, He exhales and is saying to them, "Get holy spirit!" (Jn.20:22; CLV).

If there is no definite article ('the') preceding the Greek words translated "holy spirit" then the reference is not the Third Person of the Godhead.

 

[beloved57]

Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?​

Yes, but not by the sinner because the sinners obedience in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal minded person which is the unregenerate cannot obey God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That word subject is the greek word hypotassō and means:

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

So with no question mans obedience isnt a condition for salvation.

But Christ obedience is and was, and His Obedience makes a person saved/righteous before God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its solely by His Perfect Obedience one is saved Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

His Perfect Obedience was inclusive of His Sufferings unto death to be the Captain of our Salvation Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

See Christ for His People God has given to Him, Obeyed God perfectly, so He's the only way to Eternal Salvation with God Jn 14:6

So Christs Obedience alone saved His People.

 

[Nanja]

Yes, but not by the sinner because the sinners obedience in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal minded person which is the unregenerate cannot obey God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That word subject is the greek word hypotassō and means:

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

So with no question mans obedience isnt a condition for salvation.

But Christ obedience is and was, and His Obedience makes a person saved/righteous before God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its solely by His Perfect Obedience one is saved Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

His Perfect Obedience was inclusive of His Sufferings unto death to be the Captain of our Salvation Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

See Christ for His People God has given to Him, Obeyed God perfectly, so He's the only way to Eternal Salvation with God Jn 14:6

So Christs Obedience alone saved His People.

Absolutely Correct !

 

[beloved57]

One thing thats common with all false religions, their god, or the god of their understanding, requires some kinda obedience, submissive compliance to attain salvation. However the way of Salvation is secured by the One Obedience of Jesus Christ, which is then freely given, bestowed upon those who were Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Lon]

"Yes, Obedience is a condition of salvation."
What it means and what it doesn't mean:

Similarly, 'you must be born again' is a condition, it is not a command. It MUST be met. MAD disagrees that 'born again' is the same as 'if any man is in Christ, he/she is a new creation' but the condition is the same: A new creation thus 'born again' one way or another.

Then, is obedience a condition of salvation? Yes in every sense that I'm a new creation, following Jesus is part and parcel. What do I obey? The law? No but 'sort of.' It is the condition of a new creation to follow Christ. As such, the man walking in the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, thus the Spirit in me supersedes the Law. Obedience then, as Paul says, is to the Spirit in me, and is a natural part of being a new creation: New creations desire 'new things.' It is part and parcel, so yeah, obedience comes with being a new creation. I've repeatedly told my youth: If you want to see more Jesus in your life, spend more time with Him. This whole faith thing is a relationship, not a list of do's and don't's. The moment it does, you've lost the prize, which is simply enjoying a relationship with God, in which you will become more like Him. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for (what else) good, new natured/desired works...." Thus, if you follow and walk with God, IT IS its own fulfillment. You don't have to do rules any more and 'obedience' is simply the walk of a man close to His God. "Walk in the Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh." Get close to Jesus people.

 

[ttruscott]

NO, salvation is the cause of obedience...

 

[beloved57]

"Yes, Obedience is a condition of salvation."
What it means and what it doesn't mean:

Similarly, 'you must be born again' is a condition, it is not a command. It MUST be met. MAD disagrees that 'born again' is the same as 'if any man is in Christ, he/she is a new creation' but the condition is the same: A new creation thus 'born again' one way or another.

Then, is obedience a condition of salvation? Yes in every sense that I'm a new creation, following Jesus is part and parcel. What do I obey? The law? No but 'sort of.' It is the condition of a new creation to follow Christ. As such, the man walking in the Spirit will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, thus the Spirit in me supersedes the Law. Obedience then, as Paul says, is to the Spirit in me, and is a natural part of being a new creation: New creations desire 'new things.' It is part and parcel, so yeah, obedience comes with being a new creation. I've repeatedly told my youth: If you want to see more Jesus in your life, spend more time with Him. This whole faith thing is a relationship, not a list of do's and don't's. The moment it does, you've lost the prize, which is simply enjoying a relationship with God, in which you will become more like Him. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for (what else) good, new natured/desired works...." Thus, if you follow and walk with God, IT IS its own fulfillment. You don't have to do rules any more and 'obedience' is simply the walk of a man close to His God. "Walk in the Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh." Get close to Jesus people.

This is works religion !

 

[Lon]

This is works religion !

Sure. It is the idea that if you are His, you do His works naturally. And? Are you HIs? Do you belong to Him? If so, you cannot help doing what He wants any more than you can stop breathing. A new nature DOES new things. As simple as that. Question is, do you have Christ dwelling in you? "Yes" means "New Creation, New Works." Fact.

 

[Lon]

NO, salvation is the cause of obedience...

Which means "yes" that technically, it IS a condition of being a new creation. If you don't get that point implicitly, it is going to mess up your theology. ONLY new creations, created in Christ Jesus, are capable of doing what pleases Him. Romans 8:8 Those in the flesh CANNOT please Him. Then 1 Corinthians 2:11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. Perhaps 'obedience' is the hangup? Simply say 'follow' at that point. Do you 'follow' Jesus? That is trying to pattern your life after Him. Paul said "Follow me as I follow Christ." That is 'obedience' AND a call to obedience. It is simply what you listen to and follow. That is what obedience means.

 

[marke]

Belief is a condition of salvation;

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Works follow those whose salvation is real. If a profession of faith lacks the fruit of good works and a righteous nature then that profession is false.


James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[marke]

This is works religion !

A faith without works is dead, worthless, and incapable of saving anyone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[marke]

hobie



Only Christs obedience was necessary to save sinners, Everyone He obeyed for shall be made righteous ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If sinners do not have to repent of their sins and do not have to seek Jesus' forgiveness for the remission of sins, then how can God forgive them of their sins while refusing to forgive others the same way? Is God a God of hate? Why would God send some sinners to hell to be tortured forever while forgiving others for no human reason that separates them from those who go to hell?

 

[beloved57]

Sure. It is the idea that if you are His, you do His works naturally. And? Are you HIs? Do you belong to Him? If so, you cannot help doing what He wants any more than you can stop breathing. A new nature DOES new things. As simple as that. Question is, do you have Christ dwelling in you? "Yes" means "New Creation, New Works." Fact.

To be under works is to be under the curse my friend. ts Christs obedience alone that saves a person !

 

[beloved57]

A faith without works is dead, worthless, and incapable of saving anyone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Works religion is dead works by a dead person !

 

[beloved57]

If sinners do not have to repent of their sins and do not have to seek Jesus' forgiveness for the remission of sins, then how can God forgive them of their sins while refusing to forgive others the same way? Is God a God of hate? Why would God send some sinners to hell to be tortured forever while forgiving others for no human reason that separates them from those who go to hell?

Works religion, this is contrary to Christs obedience that saves a man !

 

[Lon]

To be under works is to be under the curse my friend. ts Christs obedience alone that saves a person !

You missed my post, Christ supersedes the law, thus the law is fulfilled incidentally in the life of a new believer. It is like breathing, if you are in Christ, He makes you like Himself. If not, question whether you are in Him or check that you are spending time with Him as your Lord and Savior. It is as simple as me(you) knowing Him, and Him knowing you (me). Get that, and the rest will take care of it self new-naturally.

To be under works is to be under the curse my friend. ts Christs obedience alone that saves a person !

You aren't 'under' works. They are under every believer. No believer, following Christ, has any desire to harm someone or quench the Holy Spirt, thus the Law, all tied up in loving God, and loving one another, is already fulfilled. New Creations new-naturally follow. If I have to do anything but encourage your walk with God, then something is wrong. It becomes extrinsic instead of intrinsic. The Christian isn't worried about Law, they are indwelled with a desire to follow Christ. On top of that, Christ has set us free from those consequences. The Law is no longer our master (Galatians), the Spirit is. This is all laid out, for us, clearly in Galatians.

 

[Lon]

NO ONE has eternal life until AFTER Jesus dies on the cross, is raised from the dead and the Holy Spirit is given to dwell in those who believe or have believed. Your cultish views carry no truth. John 5:24 is a promise concerning those who believe. I've shared other similar verses that confirm this, but you hate the Bible, hate Jesus, and hate the gospel. Go to hell, I don't really care.

I agree with you, but is missing this salvific? I'm not sure. A mistake? Yeah, but for me, not that huge of a deal if they are open to correction. To me, it seems an 'in-body' discussion and correction. As far as I can tell, it doesn't interfere with someone trusting the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. In Him -Lon

 

[beloved57]

You missed my post, Christ supersedes the law, thus the law is fulfilled incidentally in the life of a new believer. It is like breathing, if you are in Christ, He makes you like Himself. If not, question whether you are in Him or check that you are spending time with Him as your Lord and Savior. It is as simple as me(you) knowing Him, and Him knowing you (me). Get that, and the rest will take care of it self new-naturally.


You aren't 'under' works. They are under every believer. No believer, following Christ, has any desire to harm someone or quench the Holy Spirt, thus the Law, all tied up in loving God, and loving one another, is already fulfilled. New Creations new-naturally follow. If I have to do anything but encourage your walk with God, then something is wrong. It becomes extrinsic instead of intrinsic. The Christian isn't worried about Law, they are indwelled with a desire to follow Christ. On top of that, Christ has set us free from those consequences. The Law is no longer our master (Galatians), the Spirit is. This is all laid out, for us, clearly in Galatians.

You off to the races friend with a different subject matter.