beloved57
Well-known member
I have no problem with those scriptures. They dont teach salvation conditioned on man !
Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Does a person not have to believe the gospel so to be saved so is not faith a condition for salvation for every person?
Of course believing is a condition for salvation on a person's part.
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:160.
Of course believing is a condition for salvation on a person's part.
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:160.
Nanja
Well-known member
The only Faith / Believing that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth to all God's Elect.
Gal. 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
The Gospel comes in Power to God's Elect exclusively at the time of their conversion;
when they are Born of the Spirit / Born Again.
1 Thess. 1:4-5
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
But those who are still in the flesh, not born again, aren't capable of believing in a way that pleases Him.
Rom. 8:7-9
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Speaking of the new birth and receiving life the following two passages make it plain that a person receives new life by the word of God;
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1;17).
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
The Lord Jesus said hat his words are spirit and they are life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Here is a better translation of the verse you quoted:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness" (Gal.5;22; NKJV).
"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1;17).
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
The Lord Jesus said hat his words are spirit and they are life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Here is a better translation of the verse you quoted:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness" (Gal.5;22; NKJV).
beloved57
Well-known member
Thats salvation by works !
Question:
Would you agree that trying to climb the rope to heaven will only result in never reaching heaven? (ie, that trying to work to get to heaven will never merit one's salvation)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is ridiculous to argue that believing in Christ is a work since Paul puts believing in the category of "worketh not" in the following verse:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Ro.4;5).
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Ro.4;5).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
byass, You said "no" to what ?
NO! to 'Is Obedience a condition of salvation'
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Thanks!
OZOS
Well-known member
You need to clarify what you mean by "obedience", because obedience is necessary to be saved, it matters what you are obeying.
"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
"...since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
Amen to those scriptures! I know that I love Jesus wholeheartedly. I seek to do daily what God is working in me to will and to do. Phil 2:12-13.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOS, you quoted the following two verses:
"...since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
In both cases the Greek word translated "obey" and "obeyed" also means " to hearken." and that word is translated that way at Acts 12:13. In the instance of a "gospel"or 'good news" one doesn't obey that good news but instead 'hearkens"to it.
the word 'hearken" means "to give heed or attention to what is said; listen.." If a persn doesn't heed or give attention to the gospel then that person isn't going to believe it.
"...since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
In both cases the Greek word translated "obey" and "obeyed" also means " to hearken." and that word is translated that way at Acts 12:13. In the instance of a "gospel"or 'good news" one doesn't obey that good news but instead 'hearkens"to it.
the word 'hearken" means "to give heed or attention to what is said; listen.." If a persn doesn't heed or give attention to the gospel then that person isn't going to believe it.
OZOS
Well-known member
I know, dummy, that is why the word is translated to "obey", or do you think you know more than the translators? Oh wait, that's a silly question, of course you do. Both faith and works require obedience. The latter cannot save, the former does save. The latter requires human effort, the former is effortless. But, you have always exhibited your confusion between these two.
"Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience (ὑπακοή) to the faith among all nations for His name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ" Rom 1:5-6
"but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith" - Rom 16:26
"Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith." Acts 6:7
That's correct, a person must obey what they hear. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".
If a person does not obey the truth of the gospel, then they are not saved.
"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will repay each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation." Rom 2:4-8
To repent is to turn from not believing God to believing God, from not obeying the truth, to obeying the truth.
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:12
OZOS
Well-known member
I'd like to believe what you say, but that might be less of a challenge, if you were not here promoting a cult.
And Phil 2:12-13 has nothing to do with God completing you as an individual, and is simply a message to a group of believers that God is not going to abandon them, should the apostle Paul is no longer alive to minister to them. Paul has already stated elsewhere that those who are in Christ have been made complete (Col 2:10).
In the letter to the Galatians, chapter 3 and verse 3, Paul asks them why they would be so foolish as to attempt to make themselves perfect (come to completion) through the flesh, when they began by the Spirit?
All through Paul's writings, he consistently appeals to us to stop focusing on the flesh. In fact, he says in Romans 8 that "the mind set on the flesh is death". The reason for this (as Paul continues) is that being "carnally minded" is to be at enmity with God. For it (the flesh) is not subject to the Law of God. As he says, the flesh doesn’t even have that ability. To be in the flesh (to be carnally minded) you will never please God. The truth is, the only way you can please God is by faith (Heb 11:6). This is how we come to Him (Eph 2:8-9), and this is how we are to walk in Him (Col 2:6). We walk by grace through faith. We are to be spiritually minded, which alone is “life and peace” (Rom 8:6). The flesh (that which you can see) is temporal, and it is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10), yet your spirit (that which you cannot see) is alive because you are now the righteousness of God in Christ. It is the Spirit that gives you life!
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” John 6:63
The flesh profits nothing. It is in decay (2 Cor 4:16). It is perishing (1 Cor 15:42-), yet, in patience and in hope we look to the time when it will be redeemed (Rom 8:23), and we receive a new body, that will not decay, that is imperishable.
"Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent, which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight" 2 Cor 4:16-5:7
As a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:17), you are in the Spirit and no longer in the flesh. This is simply because the Spirit of God now dwells in you, and you now dwell in Him (Rom 8:9). He is your life (Col 3:4). Even though you continue to live in a body of flesh, you are in fact circumcised from it (Col 2:11), and are seated in Christ in heavenly places (Eph 1:20). This is not allegorical, metaphorical or some mystical experience, but reality. It is a literal exchange of identity (Gal 2:20).
Therefore, to walk in the Spirit is to walk by faith in that which is already true, whether you see it or not. To walk according to the flesh is to attempt to bring the flesh in line with that which has already been accomplished in the Spirit; that is, to the same completeness and perfection that you already have in Christ. It is a dead work when you do anything to get something you already have. And we have every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph 1:3). We have been given everything pertaining to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3). If we lack anything at all, it is only that our minds have yet to be renewed with this truth.
This whole idea, the religious zealots of this world have created in our minds, that “walking in the flesh” is falling back into sinful behavior, is completely opposite of the truth. It is absolutely contrary to the Gospel of God’s grace, and places the burden on the flesh to do that which puts us at enmity with God. As Paul points out in chapter 5 of Galatians, the flesh and the spirit are contrary to one another, and you cannot do what you please (vs.17). The flesh cannot obey the Law, and therefore Jesus condemned sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3). The Law has been fulfilled in us (Rom 8:4), and we are no longer under it (Rom 6:14). We have been released from the power of sin, which is the Law.
Now, with all of that in our renewed minds, we can look at Paul’s letter to the Philippians…
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Phi 1:6
As you know, we began by the Spirit, and we received the Spirit as a result of hearing the message of the Gospel, and His righteousness. As Paul says in 1 Th 2:13:
“And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.”
God is going to perform the work that He began (the word “perform” literally means: to bring to conclusion; to bring to an end). In other words, It is no longer you who live, but Christ who lives in you. It is God who is at work in you, and through you, for His good pleasure (Phi 2:13). And when Paul writes in Ephesians that we are His workmanship, created in Christ unto good works that we should walk in them, -- those works were prepared beforehand, and have been completed in us when we received His life. Again, the works were completed in Christ – “It is finished”. When we believe the Gospel and receive His life, His works are completed in us. We walk in His completed works which carry us through to the day of redemption.
In this life, which we now walk by faith, God is working His message in us, in order that His message will also come out of us.
When Paul writes to the Philippians, he is in prison, and he wants to encourage them to carry on the work of sharing the gospel that has been worked in them.
"Now I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel, so that my imprisonment, in the cause of Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorian guard and to everyone else, and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear." Phi 1:12-14
Paul is struggling with his circumstances, and cannot decide whether to stay on, or to go be with the Lord, but he wants to be assured that those whom he has entrusted with gospel, and whom he is certain that God is at work in, will remain faithful to the work, that they are of one mind, and that they should not fear suffering, because as they know, this flesh is not their home.
“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. And convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again. Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ; so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents-- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me." Phi 1:21-30
Persecution is going to come, but Paul encourages them to come together as the Body with the intent of having one purpose, and to support each other in that which they were called...
"If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others." Phi 2:1-4
It is obvious from Paul's admonitions that there were some things that were going on in their fellowship that had them divided, and Paul is making an attempt to restore them and to get their focus back on Christ, and to humble themselves with an attitude that they would even be willing to die for one another. Paul does not want what he has done towards them to be in vain. They must remember that God is at work in them with the message of the Gospel. All their disputes and complaints could be keeping them from being effective in what God is doing in and through them, and therefore what is being worked in them can only come out if they are of one mind, united in spirit, with one purpose. They must remember that Jesus also humbled Himself even to the point of death, and He did it for them. As a result of Christ’s sacrifice, they need to approach others in humility of mind, and in fear and trembling, knowing that they are all saved by grace through faith. They are to be the lights to the world, revealing the message that God has worked in them.
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or disputing; that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." Phi 2:5-16
If we walk off the path, and begin putting confidence in the flesh, we lose our focus on Jesus, and it leads to a different message than that which God has worked in us, and should come out of us. As a result, we begin to minister death, and not life. Obedience to the Law, through the deeds of the flesh. can only produce death. That is truly what it means to be a “carnal Christian”. Let us walk in the Spirit in whom we dwell, and who dwells in us, knowing that this tent is not our home, and fixing our hope on that which we do not see; on that which is eternal. Let us “work out” that which God has worked in us.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Tell me how a person 'obey" this gospel;
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. or I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture" (1 Cor.15:1-4).
How does anyone 'obey'"what is written at 1 Corinthians 15;1-4)?
You also wrote;
"If a person does not obey the truth of the gospel, then they are not saved."
If a person believes the truth of the gospel he is saved:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;" (Ro.1:16).
According to you Paul got it wrong because he said nothing in that verse about "obedience." So your argument is with Paul and not with me. And you will lose that argument every time.
As for the expression "obedience of the faith," in this instance the word "faith" includes, among other things, of the entire body of instructions given to the believer concerning his behavior and that is indeed to be obeyed.
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. or I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture" (1 Cor.15:1-4).
How does anyone 'obey'"what is written at 1 Corinthians 15;1-4)?
You also wrote;
"If a person does not obey the truth of the gospel, then they are not saved."
If a person believes the truth of the gospel he is saved:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;" (Ro.1:16).
According to you Paul got it wrong because he said nothing in that verse about "obedience." So your argument is with Paul and not with me. And you will lose that argument every time.
As for the expression "obedience of the faith," in this instance the word "faith" includes, among other things, of the entire body of instructions given to the believer concerning his behavior and that is indeed to be obeyed.
OZOS
Well-known member
Once again, you prove that you hate the Bible and even call Paul a "liar". You are a fraud.
Why do you hate God's word?
Why do you hate the gospel?
Why do you refuse to "obey the truth"? (God's word, not mine).
Jerry Shugart, the resident false teacher, says that God's word does not claim that we must "obey the gospel" or "obey the truth" to be saved, but Jerry is a liar.
"Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience (ὑπακοή) to the faith among all nations for His name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ" Rom 1:5-6
"but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith" - Rom 16:26
"Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith." Acts 6:7
"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will repay each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation." Rom 2:4-8
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:12
To obey the gospel is to believe what it says. But, Jerry Shugart refuses to obey the gospel, because he hates the Lord Jesus Christ.
"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Rom 10:16
I don't have to tell you, because God's word already tells you. But, you hate God's word. Shame on you.
Romans 10:16 tells YOU that to obey the gospel is to believe Paul's reporting of it.
Why are you such a complete idiot? Is it because you have some massive inferiority complex and you instead of just BELIEVING God's word, you have to dispute everything anyone says to feel better about yourself? Grow up, you turd, or God will take his vengeance on your worthless butt.
"...since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OZOS,
You said: Once again, you prove that you hate the Bible and even call Paul a "liar". You are a fraud.
you deny the imporatanceof the death of the Lord Jesus on the Cross in regrd to salvation so you arethe Fraud and not me. you wrote;
"This was one of the doctrines of demons shared by the cultist John Calvin. He created his false theology based on the lie that men are saved by the death of Jesus."
You prove that youwill sayanything you can in order to undermine the truth of the gospel. Youare pathetic and so is thecult to which you belong.
You also said:
"Jerry Shugart, the resident false teacher, says that God's word does not claim that we must "obey the gospel" or "obey the truth" to be saved, but Jerry is a liar."
i asked you how you obey the following gospel and youf sailed to answer:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. or I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture" (1 Cor.15:1-4).
You call me a false teacher but at least I don't belittle the importance of the Lord Jesus 'death upon the Cross like you do.
Do you deny that a believers salvation is totally dependeny on beling redeemed?;
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Ro.3;24).
Evidently you do not even know that believers are redeemed by the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross (1 Peter1;18-19).
You are completely lost and if you don't understand the most basic thing about the gospel so it is clear youdon't believe the gospel.After all, it is impossible to believe something you don't even understand.
Anyone who takes you seriously is wasting his time.
You said: Once again, you prove that you hate the Bible and even call Paul a "liar". You are a fraud.
you deny the imporatanceof the death of the Lord Jesus on the Cross in regrd to salvation so you arethe Fraud and not me. you wrote;
"This was one of the doctrines of demons shared by the cultist John Calvin. He created his false theology based on the lie that men are saved by the death of Jesus."
You prove that youwill sayanything you can in order to undermine the truth of the gospel. Youare pathetic and so is thecult to which you belong.
You also said:
"Jerry Shugart, the resident false teacher, says that God's word does not claim that we must "obey the gospel" or "obey the truth" to be saved, but Jerry is a liar."
i asked you how you obey the following gospel and youf sailed to answer:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. or I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture" (1 Cor.15:1-4).
You call me a false teacher but at least I don't belittle the importance of the Lord Jesus 'death upon the Cross like you do.
Do you deny that a believers salvation is totally dependeny on beling redeemed?;
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Ro.3;24).
Evidently you do not even know that believers are redeemed by the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross (1 Peter1;18-19).
You are completely lost and if you don't understand the most basic thing about the gospel so it is clear youdon't believe the gospel.After all, it is impossible to believe something you don't even understand.
Anyone who takes you seriously is wasting his time.
OZOS
Well-known member
Learn to read, you braindead pervert. I NEVER said anything to diminish the death of Jesus, I simply stated what the Bible teaches, that men are saved by receiving His life, not because He died for them. He died for all men, and not all men are saved. YOUR claim that men are saved by His death makes you a Universalist, because Jesus died for all men.
What a fool you are.
That's not the whole gospel, you pervert. Not only did Jesus die for all sins of all men, He was also raised from the dead, in order to bring the justification of life to all men (Rom 5:18).
Apparently, Jerry Shugart denies the resurrection of Jesus.
You don't have the slightest clue why Jesus died on the cross, or how men are saved, or what salvation is.
You don't know anything the Bible teaches. Go back to juggling your balls, you clown, it's the only thing you're familiar with.