ECT IS MATT 19:28 TRUE !!

[George Affleck]

Do you discount what is written by Paul?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV -


2 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV - 12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not at all.

This is the general resurrection of the dead along with those who are still alive at the end of the world.
When they get raised, we will all go "together" into the heavens to meet the Lord as He descends part way from heaven to command the dead to rise. And we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever there.

He can't spend 1000 years in Jerusalem after this event because we are promised to be with Him forever in the air/clouds thereafter.

 

[Right Divider]

Not at all.

This is the general resurrection of the dead along with those who are still alive at the end of the world.
When they get raised, we will all go "together" into the heavens to meet the Lord as He descends part way from heaven to command the dead to rise. And we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever there.

He can't spend 1000 years in Jerusalem after this event because we are promised to be with Him forever in the air/clouds thereafter.

You are confusing two different things.

The catching away in Thess is NOT the first resurrection. They are separate events related to TWO different dispensations of God.

 

[George Affleck]

You are confusing two different things.

The catching away in Thess is NOT the first resurrection. They are separate events related to TWO different dispensations of God.

RD,

With respect, we will naturally disagree. I attend a Baptist church that is mostly premillennial. Yet, there are many in the congregation who have a mostly reformed eschatology. We get along well and understand our differences.

I have studied extensively the two-dispensational approach (and multi-dispensational as well) and have rejected it along with the concept of the restoration of Israel. But I also accept that there may be things I have not yet considered.

I was just assuring PJ that I do not cut verses out of my Bible, I just understand them differently than, perhaps, he does.

 

[Right Divider]

RD,

With respect, we will naturally disagree. I attend a Baptist church that is mostly premillennial. Yet, there are many in the congregation who have a mostly reformed eschatology. We get along well and understand our differences.

Two confused groups getting along is not a good way to support sound doctrine.

I have studied extensively the two-dispensational approach (and multi-dispensational as well) and have rejected it along with the concept of the restoration of Israel. But I also accept that there may be things I have not yet considered.

So you're anti-Biblical; got it.

I was just assuring PJ that I do not cut verses out of my Bible, I just understand them differently than, perhaps, he does.

Neither do Mid-Acts dispensationalists "cut verses out of the Bible" nor disregard any of them either.

 

[Danoh]

Everything comes as gifts, but when you exercise the gifts, you are bearing fruit. When a person stops doing what is wrong, and starts doing what is right, they are bearing the fruit of a changed heart.
Madists don't want to change, and so they cling to false doctrine because they love sin, and twist scripture as an excuse to live in it.

According to passages of Scripture like, say, Romans chapter 6, you...are clueless on this issue.

The Believer is said to be dead to sin.

He is then challenged by the Scripture to walk in that reality - to "be not conformed unto this world" Rom. 12:1,2.

To not, therefore, let sin reign - notice - in his "mortal body" - to not let the sin nature that dwells in one's "mortal" body...reign.

For the Believer is said to be dead to sin by the Body of Christ - by the fact of His body having died to sin, Romans 7 & 8.

That some MADs on here live by a double-standard, and so on, against anyone they do not consider of their number who strongly opposes their obviously impotent "grace" - even as said MADs assert that they (said MADs) are dead to sin - does not make their assertion that they, as Believers, are dead to sin; a lie.

It makes them liars; it does not make a lie the reality that the Believer is said to be dead to sin.

You are confused.

The fruit is there in the Believer, whether or not he walks in it. By virtue of the fact that he is in Christ; put in Him by the Spirit, the very moment in which he believed that Christ died for his sins, Romans 6; Galatians 2.

Does that mean the Believer should live any way he or she pleases?

Obviously...not.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 5:8.

 

[Danoh]

Not at all.

This is the general resurrection of the dead along with those who are still alive at the end of the world.
When they get raised, we will all go "together" into the heavens to meet the Lord as He descends part way from heaven to command the dead to rise. And we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever there.

He can't spend 1000 years in Jerusalem after this event because we are promised to be with Him forever in the air/clouds thereafter.

What Paul is talking about there about forever being with the Lord, is difficult for many to get a right handle of - even for many a Mid-Acts Dispy. *

But such things always come down to the question "what was he talking about when he then added what he added to what he was talking about?"

They were concerned about those of their loved ones who had died.

He is talking about that issue.

How that there would be a day when both they (that were still alive and had thus remained) and those of their loved ones who were no longer with them, would all be together, or alive with the Lord - forever.

Note, George...

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And what they will all be, is alive together with Him.

THAT is the sense there - the hope (confident expectation) that one day, they will all be alive with Him - there loved ones will not...remain separate from them forever.

Why?

Because...Romans 5:8.

_______________

* Some MADs end up concluding the Apostle Paul is asserting the Body will return to the Earth to reign with the Lord on the Earth; when He returns to Israel.

 

[Ktoyou]

Fiction

monkey

 

[George Affleck]

monkey

No, more like donkey.

:chuckle:

 

[George Affleck]

...They were concerned about those of their loved ones who had died.

He is talking about that issue.


...And what they will all be, is alive together with Him.

Exactly.
That is what the whole passage is concerned with; the general resurrection at the last trump and the entering into the heavens of both the quick and the dead. 2 Tim 4:1KJV

Some may have thought the dead would be hindered or disqualified, not being alive to see the Lord at His coming.
Or they may have thought that those who were alive would precede those who are in the graves.
But Paul corrects this error by telling them that no one will go to heaven to be with the Lord until the dead are raised.

 

[glorydaz]

That some MADs on here live by a double-standard, and so on, against anyone they do not consider of their number who strongly opposes their obviously impotent "grace" - even as said MADs assert that they (said MADs) are dead to sin - does not make their assertion that they, as Believers, are dead to sin; a lie.

It makes them liars; it does not make a lie the reality that the Believer is said to be dead to sin.

Cool. You can award yourself the IDIOT of the YEAR Award for that foolish statement. :first:

 

[musterion]

Cool. You can award yourself the IDIOT of the YEAR Award for that foolish statement. :first:

Hypocrite of the Year. The first line cinches it.

 

[musterion]

General question:

Is the believer literally dead to sin, or only judicially declared by God to be so, and so is expected to reckon it so and walk by faith in what God has declared?

 

[glorydaz]

General question:

Is the believer literally dead to sin, or only judicially declared by God to be so, and so is expected to reckon it so and walk by faith in what God has declared?

The latter, just as "whatever is not of faith is sin".

If you don't believe it is so, then you'll fall at every turn.

 

[steko]

General question:

Is the believer literally dead to sin, or only judicially declared by God to be so, and so is expected to reckon it so and walk by faith in what God has declared?

Sin is in the flesh.
Thirty-eight years ago my soul/spirit was saved.
My flesh is yet to be saved in the resurrection.
I'm still totin' around the same old brain with all its crud.
We are to 'reckon' ourselves dead to sin and alive to GOD.
We are to set our affections on things above.
It's a decision to be made.
It becomes a lifestyle.

 

[musterion]

The latter, just as "whatever is not of faith is sin".

If you don't believe it is so, then you'll fall at every turn.

Sin is in the flesh.
Thirty-eight years ago my soul/spirit was saved.
My flesh is yet to be saved in the resurrection.
I'm still totin' around the same old brain with all its crud.
We are to 'reckon' ourselves dead to sin and alive to GOD.
We are to set our affections on things above.
It's a decision to be made.
It becomes a lifestyle.

Agreed!

 

[musterion]

I'm waiting for an eradicationist to show up.

 

[glorydaz]

Sin is in the flesh.
Thirty-eight years ago my soul/spirit was saved.
My flesh is yet to be saved in the resurrection.
I'm still totin' around the same old brain with all its crud.
We are to 'reckon' ourselves dead to sin and alive to GOD.
We are to set our affections on things above.
It's a decision to be made.
It becomes a lifestyle.

All a part of being conformed into the image of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;​

 

[glorydaz]

I'm waiting for an eradicationist to show up.

What's that?

 

[Ktoyou]

No, more like donkey.

:chuckle:

monkey riding donkey:think:

 

[musterion]

What's that?

One of those who say that sin/the old nature/old man has been literally destroyed and is truly dead...removed...gone...eradicated...and so nothing's left but the new.