Is it Immoral to Vote for McCain/Palin? Battle Royale XIII
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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WandererInFog
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In their final round our opponents have once again demonstrated their continued confusion as to precisely what this debate is about, if not a deliberate decision to ignore it.
The question placed before is:
Is it immoral to vote for McCain/Palin?
It is not:
Is it wise to for McCain/Palin? Or Is is the best strategy the vote McCain/Palin?
And yet it is those two questions which our opponents have entirely concerned themselves throughout this debate. In our opening, we posited a clear definition, based on Scripture, of when choosing to vote for a candidate was definitively immoral, which we will restate again here: The only instance in which voting could be definitively considered an immoral act is if a vote is cast for someone who God himself would not command us to obey as a legitimate authority.
Our opponents contend that an election is an issue of choosing authority, not of submitting to it. And they are quite correct in this observation. However, in making this argument they have fundamentally misunderstood how this principle is derived from Scripture. It is not an issue that we may vote for anyone who God would command us to obey, it is that we may morally delegate authority to anyone that God himself could morally delegate authority to.
More Righteous Than God?
Their entire argument comes down to an assertion, without Scriptural basis, that to ever give authority to anyone who would allow abortion to be legal under any circumstances would be immoral. And yet, to hold consistently to this position they have failed to realize that they must condemn God Himself as immoral. It was God who, speaking through both the Apostles Peter and Paul, commanded obedience to the Roman government as authorities which He Himself had given power and authority (Rom 13:1, 1 Peter 2:13). The government in question was one which condoned not only abortion, but infanticide as well. And yet God chose to utilize such people as a means to bring the ends He desired.
These commands must have deeply troubled many of those Christians who lived in the first century and saw the gross evil committed by the Roman Empire, and yet two millenia in the future we can see clearly how God utilized these evil men as a means to bring about a good end. He used the roads they built to maintain their military domination over a multitude of nations, including His own chosen people, as the pathways along which His Gospel could quickly reach a vast number of people, and He used the languages their imperialism has forced on those nations to make it readily accessible and easily understood.
This is where any argument regarding the “immorality” of voting for McCain/Palin completely collapses. We either accept what we find in scripture or we attempt to make ourselves “More Righteous than God”.
This does not, in and of itself, mean that we therefore should vote McCain/Palin. It merely establishes it as one potential option among many which we may as Christians vociferously debate, but which we should not divide over.
Argument from Inconsitency
On an intuitive level, our opponents seem to recognize this. They agree that voting McCain/Palin should not place a believer under the discipline of the Church, but they fail to accept that by agreeing to this, they are agreeing that it is not a matter which falls into the category of moral vs. immoral. They attempt to deflect this weakly by making comparisons to someone telling a small lie to their wife and similar silly things which are in no way analogous to the matter at hand. Voting is not simply an “off the cuff” decision one makes upon walking into the voting booth. It is the end result of a deliberate process of thought regarding the candidates (or at the very least it should be). To make the example they've attempted to use in any way remotely similar, we would have to compare it to someone who practices deception, not merely as sudden impulsive decision, but one who has decided that deception is moral and practices it unrepentantly. We would hope that all of us could agree that such a person should be disciplined by their Church, and if they continue being unrepentant, removed for it.
And finally on strategy
And this is where the argument regarding the morality of voting for McCain/Palin ends. However, as our opponents have repeatedly sought to broaden the debate to include whether or not voting for McCain/Palin represents a wise strategy for Christians who wish to see abortion ended, we will now briefly visit that subject as well. We have chosen to each, independently write our portion of this as our reasons for believing this to be so are not precisely identical.
WandererInFog:
My decision to support McCain/Palin is entirely based on how likely we are during the next four years to see, one way or the other, a massive shift in the Supreme Court of the United States. Whoever is the next President of the United States will almost certainly have the opportunity to replace two of the most liberal judges sitting on the court today: John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I am hopeful that McCain will keep his promise in this regard and nominate strict constructionists judges, who would, by virtue of holding to that philosophy, be willing to overturn Roe v. Wade. However, even should the judges he nominate be "moderates" in the vein of John Roberts, we would still see an end to certain dangerous trends on the part of the court, including the rise in court opinions drawing on the laws of foreign nations.
In essence, these next four years will determine the success or failure of the efforts of the past 30 years on the part of Pro-Life conservatives to create a court willing to overturn Roe v. Wade. If Obama is elected and Stevens & Ginsburg are replaced by younger, equally liberal judges then all of these efforts will have ultimately amounted to nothing and we will have lost our last, best opportunity to see Roe v. Wade overturned in our lifetimes. If that happens, then it will be time to abandon this strategy and move onto other means in our fight against abortion. However to abandon this strategy now, when the prospect of success remains viable would be foolhardy. McCain may well fail us in this regard as well, but I believe that, win or lose, we are final stage of this race and it is wisest to see it through to the finish.
nicholsmom:
Next month, I will cast a vote for McCain/Palin. I do this not because I have hope of positive change in our nation, but because I desire to slow our nation's decline into socialism.
I will not sit atop a moral high-horse with eyes tightly closed and declare that the Obama an McCain are the same. I've done the research and I know better. Barack Obama is a socialist who has not only the desire but the backing & cunning to cause great change in our nation - but not for the good. I found an article on the net that gives a clear history lesson on the issue of socialism. I highly recommend that every voter read it.
Others may chose to close their eyes, plug their ears, and chant "la, la, la, I can't hear you!" all they like, but I will not vote in ignorance and denial. I will vote for the best, most viable enemy of freedom's worst enemy: socialism. I will vote for McCain/Palin and pray for God's people to get off of their pews and onto their knees before Almighty God before it really is too late.
Final Remarks
In closing, we would like to thank both the administrators of this board and our opponents for the opportunity to engage in this debate, as well as to thank the audience who has taken the time to follow it. We hope that the end result of all of this discussion is that, regardless of how you choose to vote in November, that your decision has become a more carefully considered one as the result of the discussion that has gone on in this "Battle Royale".
In their final round our opponents have once again demonstrated their continued confusion as to precisely what this debate is about, if not a deliberate decision to ignore it.
The question placed before is:
Is it immoral to vote for McCain/Palin?
It is not:
Is it wise to for McCain/Palin? Or Is is the best strategy the vote McCain/Palin?
And yet it is those two questions which our opponents have entirely concerned themselves throughout this debate. In our opening, we posited a clear definition, based on Scripture, of when choosing to vote for a candidate was definitively immoral, which we will restate again here: The only instance in which voting could be definitively considered an immoral act is if a vote is cast for someone who God himself would not command us to obey as a legitimate authority.
Our opponents contend that an election is an issue of choosing authority, not of submitting to it. And they are quite correct in this observation. However, in making this argument they have fundamentally misunderstood how this principle is derived from Scripture. It is not an issue that we may vote for anyone who God would command us to obey, it is that we may morally delegate authority to anyone that God himself could morally delegate authority to.
More Righteous Than God?
Their entire argument comes down to an assertion, without Scriptural basis, that to ever give authority to anyone who would allow abortion to be legal under any circumstances would be immoral. And yet, to hold consistently to this position they have failed to realize that they must condemn God Himself as immoral. It was God who, speaking through both the Apostles Peter and Paul, commanded obedience to the Roman government as authorities which He Himself had given power and authority (Rom 13:1, 1 Peter 2:13). The government in question was one which condoned not only abortion, but infanticide as well. And yet God chose to utilize such people as a means to bring the ends He desired.
These commands must have deeply troubled many of those Christians who lived in the first century and saw the gross evil committed by the Roman Empire, and yet two millenia in the future we can see clearly how God utilized these evil men as a means to bring about a good end. He used the roads they built to maintain their military domination over a multitude of nations, including His own chosen people, as the pathways along which His Gospel could quickly reach a vast number of people, and He used the languages their imperialism has forced on those nations to make it readily accessible and easily understood.
This is where any argument regarding the “immorality” of voting for McCain/Palin completely collapses. We either accept what we find in scripture or we attempt to make ourselves “More Righteous than God”.
This does not, in and of itself, mean that we therefore should vote McCain/Palin. It merely establishes it as one potential option among many which we may as Christians vociferously debate, but which we should not divide over.
Argument from Inconsitency
On an intuitive level, our opponents seem to recognize this. They agree that voting McCain/Palin should not place a believer under the discipline of the Church, but they fail to accept that by agreeing to this, they are agreeing that it is not a matter which falls into the category of moral vs. immoral. They attempt to deflect this weakly by making comparisons to someone telling a small lie to their wife and similar silly things which are in no way analogous to the matter at hand. Voting is not simply an “off the cuff” decision one makes upon walking into the voting booth. It is the end result of a deliberate process of thought regarding the candidates (or at the very least it should be). To make the example they've attempted to use in any way remotely similar, we would have to compare it to someone who practices deception, not merely as sudden impulsive decision, but one who has decided that deception is moral and practices it unrepentantly. We would hope that all of us could agree that such a person should be disciplined by their Church, and if they continue being unrepentant, removed for it.
And finally on strategy
And this is where the argument regarding the morality of voting for McCain/Palin ends. However, as our opponents have repeatedly sought to broaden the debate to include whether or not voting for McCain/Palin represents a wise strategy for Christians who wish to see abortion ended, we will now briefly visit that subject as well. We have chosen to each, independently write our portion of this as our reasons for believing this to be so are not precisely identical.
WandererInFog:
My decision to support McCain/Palin is entirely based on how likely we are during the next four years to see, one way or the other, a massive shift in the Supreme Court of the United States. Whoever is the next President of the United States will almost certainly have the opportunity to replace two of the most liberal judges sitting on the court today: John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I am hopeful that McCain will keep his promise in this regard and nominate strict constructionists judges, who would, by virtue of holding to that philosophy, be willing to overturn Roe v. Wade. However, even should the judges he nominate be "moderates" in the vein of John Roberts, we would still see an end to certain dangerous trends on the part of the court, including the rise in court opinions drawing on the laws of foreign nations.
In essence, these next four years will determine the success or failure of the efforts of the past 30 years on the part of Pro-Life conservatives to create a court willing to overturn Roe v. Wade. If Obama is elected and Stevens & Ginsburg are replaced by younger, equally liberal judges then all of these efforts will have ultimately amounted to nothing and we will have lost our last, best opportunity to see Roe v. Wade overturned in our lifetimes. If that happens, then it will be time to abandon this strategy and move onto other means in our fight against abortion. However to abandon this strategy now, when the prospect of success remains viable would be foolhardy. McCain may well fail us in this regard as well, but I believe that, win or lose, we are final stage of this race and it is wisest to see it through to the finish.
nicholsmom:
Next month, I will cast a vote for McCain/Palin. I do this not because I have hope of positive change in our nation, but because I desire to slow our nation's decline into socialism.
I will not sit atop a moral high-horse with eyes tightly closed and declare that the Obama an McCain are the same. I've done the research and I know better. Barack Obama is a socialist who has not only the desire but the backing & cunning to cause great change in our nation - but not for the good. I found an article on the net that gives a clear history lesson on the issue of socialism. I highly recommend that every voter read it.
Others may chose to close their eyes, plug their ears, and chant "la, la, la, I can't hear you!" all they like, but I will not vote in ignorance and denial. I will vote for the best, most viable enemy of freedom's worst enemy: socialism. I will vote for McCain/Palin and pray for God's people to get off of their pews and onto their knees before Almighty God before it really is too late.
Final Remarks
In closing, we would like to thank both the administrators of this board and our opponents for the opportunity to engage in this debate, as well as to thank the audience who has taken the time to follow it. We hope that the end result of all of this discussion is that, regardless of how you choose to vote in November, that your decision has become a more carefully considered one as the result of the discussion that has gone on in this "Battle Royale".
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