ECT Is God Moral?

Is God Moral?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 96.2%

  • No

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Total voters
    26
Clete

Clete

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glorydaz said:
Yes, I believe He can be both. If God does something we don't consider moral then we can be sure we can only see through a glass darkly. I think we see this a lot...when people say God would never do thus and so or He would never allow thus and so. We can't see His purposes and His ways which are so much higher than ours.

So, it certainly wouldn't make God evil. I guess it would have to (change) broaden our definition of righteous. Since those are the only two choices you've given me. ;)
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I'm not sure that you understood my question.

I'm not talking about the things that God does that maybe we can't understand because of a lack of perspective or knowledge. I'm asking a PURELY hypothetical question that is philosophical in nature. I'm asking what if God where to do something that we obviously know the real God would never actually do, something completely and absurdly evil like appear in physical form and sexually assault all the five year old kids in Los Angeles at once.

Would such an action make God an evil god or would it merely alter the definition of the words 'good' and 'evil'?

My answer is the former, not the later. God is objectively good and if He were to do evil, He would be evil. Having said that, you are not wrong when you say that He is the standard of morality but perhaps not in the sense in which you mean it. My goal here is to present a rationally coherent Christian ethic and code of morality as well as to show that what passes in most Christian's minds as a moral standard renders God amoral and unwittingly hands a victory to atheists.


Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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elohiym

elohiym

Well-known member
Clete said:
Playing devil's advocate here...

Can He be both?
How is it not a tautology to say that God is both righteous and the standard by which righteousness is determined?
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God is both love and the standard by which righteousness is determined (love).

Clete said:
If God is the standard, what if God did something that is currently evil by every moral standard we can name? Would that make God evil or would that change the definition of righteousness?
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I believe the definition of righteousness would change because God is subjectively good. God is love; love is subjective, not objective.
 
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CabinetMaker

CabinetMaker

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Clete said:
I'm not sure that you understood my question.

I'm not talking about the things that God does that maybe we can't understand because of a lack of perspective or knowledge. I'm asking a PURELY hypothetical question that is philosophical in nature. I'm asking what if God where to do something that we obviously know the real God would never actually do, something completely and absurdly evil like appear in physical form and sexually assault all the five year old kids in Los Angeles at once.

Would such an action make God an evil god or would it merely alter the definition of the words 'good' and 'evil'?

My answer is the former, not the later. God is objectively good and if He were to do evil, He would be evil. Having said that, you are not wrong when you say that He is the standard or morality but perhaps not in the sense in which you mean it. My goal here is to present a rationally coherent Christian ethic and code of morality as well as to show that what passes in most Christian's minds as a moral standard renders God amoral and unwittingly hands a victory to atheists.


Resting in Him,
Clete
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Your post makes it sound as though you think morality exists independently of God. Do you believe that? If morality exists independently of God, who judges God? His creation?
 
Desert Reign

Desert Reign

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Clete said:
You mention Matthew 5...
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.​
The question, "Is God moral?" implies the following....

God is perfect - by what standard?

How would you answer that question?

Resting in Him,
Clete
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I have answered this question often enough. Though I think at most 2 or 3 people on this forum have ever understood it. It is not because they are incapable of understanding it but because their minds and their cultures have caused them to be set in their ways and breaking out to see different understandings is difficult.

To be specific, they are stuck on Euthyphro's dilemma. They assume the universe is dualistic and that there is no answer to the dilemma, only paradox. Most people have never even heard of Euthyphro but the concept is ingrained in them anyway - they just don't realise it consciously. And it is as you say, a victory to Satan - because the Apostle commanded us to have a ready answer to those who ask us to explain our faith. Instead we give them only paradox and legalism, doctrines that make no rational sense and a church devoid of the power of the Holy Spirit. The church has only survived through this because there are many believers in it who are sincere in their love for Jesus and who demonstrate practical love to their neighbours and brothers and sisters in the faith regardless of the doctrines they are taught or the rules of conduct they are told to obey.
 
JosephR

JosephR

New member
No, Morals are human concepts... like time. and God is not concerned or restrained by human thoughts and concepts...

The answer is in Job.
 
Clete

Clete

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1Mind1Spirit said:
Sure I do.

As much as I can understand what good is.



No, it's not my call either.

Jesus said his father is good.

I believe him.

I also wait daily on Jesus to share with me the goodness of his father.

And he does. :)
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Is it that you don't notice it when you contradict yourself or that you don't care?
 
Clete

Clete

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JosephR said:
No, Morals are human concepts... like time. and God is not concerned or restrained by human thoughts and concepts...

The answer is in Job.
Click to expand...

Then what does it mean to say that God is good?

Psalm 118:1 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever.

Psalm 143:10 Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.​

And why didn't you input an answer on the poll?
 
Clete

Clete

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CabinetMaker said:
Your post makes it sound as though you think morality exists independently of God. Do you believe that? If morality exists independently of God, who judges God? His creation?
Click to expand...

Morality is an idea, CM. It does not exist in an ontological sense. Thus morality does not exist independent of the mind that conceives it.

Having said that, it either means something to say that God is good or it does not. If it means something then the moral standard by which good or evil is determined is applicable in some meaningful way to God.

Its very very simple really. To suggest that God is immoral is obviously blasphemy and to say that God is amoral renders it meaningless to say that God is good or righteous. The bible repeatedly and explicitly states that God is good, righteous and just all of which are essentially synonymous moral statements. Therefore God is moral.

That argument alone is enough to prove that God is in fact moral but that isn't really the point of this thread. It is patently obvious that God is moral. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't thought it through, preferring instead to believe what they've been taught, using their pastor's brain as a surrogate for their own. Either that or they've been deceived by clever arguments that seem to pose a philosophical problem that they don't know how to combat. I can't do anything for the blind follower who has divorced himself from thinking but I believe I can help those who are either deceived or simply ignorant. The later is the point of this thread. I'll get to it in due time.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Clete

Clete

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elohiym said:
God is both love and the standard by which righteousness is determined (love).



I believe the definition of righteousness would change because God is subjectively good. God is love; love is subjective, not objective.
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Please explain what you mean by "love is subjective".

When a child molester claims he "loves" children, are you unwilling to say that he is wrong?

If you are willing then the standard by which you do so is a moral standard which renders love (i.e. righteousness) objective not subjective.
 
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revpete

revpete

New member
Clete said:
Please explain what you mean by "love is subjective".

When I child molester claims he "loves" children, are you unwilling to say that he is wrong?

If you are willing then the standard by which you do so is a moral standard which renders love (i.e. righteousness) objective not subjective.
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I feel that scripture teaches us that morality has its roots and foundation in God. Adam before he fell was perfectly moral as is God. However, after the fall his morality fell with him and now the morality we have is "fallen" morality. Could it be that one of the reasons for Adam's fall was that his perfect morality was corrupted and that was because he did not posses the perfect incorruptability of God. Just a thought.

Pete 👤
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Clete said:
The bible repeatedly and explicitly states that God is good, righteous and just all of which are essentially synonymous moral statements. Therefore God is moral.
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The sayings that are written in the bible did not originate from the minds of men.

These things were spoken from the perspective of the spirit of Christ.


That argument alone is enough to prove that God is in fact moral but that isn't really the point of this thread.
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No the point of this thread is for Clete to tell everyone just how blind and stupid they are.

I believe I can help those who are either deceived or simply ignorant. The later is the point of this thread. I'll get to it in due time.
Click to expand...

:kookoo:
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
revpete said:
I feel that scripture teaches us that morality has its roots and foundation in God. Adam before he fell was perfectly moral as is God. However, after the fall his morality fell with him and now the morality we have is "fallen" morality. Could it be that one of the reasons for Adam's fall was that his perfect morality was corrupted and that was because he did not posses the perfect incorruptability of God. Just a thought.

Pete 👤
Click to expand...

Now this is a case in point of self contradiction.

If Adam's morality had been as perfect as God's it would not have suffered corruption.
 
Dialogos

Dialogos

Well-known member
The question is the cheese, so lets see what happens when Clete tries to spring the trap...

:chuckle:

God is righteous, good and holy. The Word claims all of these to be true.

But there are things that are true of God that would be immoral for a creature.

For example; it is immoral for a mere human to receive worship.
It is not immoral for God to receive worship, its just.

Its immoral for a man to knowingly bring destruction on people.
The scriptures are clear that God does exactly this.

It is immoral for man to change God's law.
God can change His own law whenever it suits His plan and purpose.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Dialogos said:
The question is the cheese, so lets see what happens when Clete tries to spring the trap...

:chuckle:

God is righteous, good and holy. The Word claims all of these to be true.

But there are things that are true of God that would be immoral for a creature.

For example; it is immoral for a mere human to receive worship.
It is not immoral for God to receive worship, its just.

Its immoral for a man to knowingly bring destruction on people.
The scriptures are clear that God does exactly this.

It is immoral for man to change God's law.
God can change His own law whenever it suits His plan and purpose.
Click to expand...

If nothing else, Clete is a glutton for punishment. :plain:
 
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